[Graillotion]

Can you post the INCI of your benchmark?

Pretty sure the group can tell you what is making it glossy…if they have that INCI.

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

There are so many issues here besides soaping. Preservation system isn’t adequate. Emulsification system non existent pretty much. GMS isn’t an emulsifier on its own. Too much of tocopherol. 

Agreed!  

You don’t have any nice textural items???  I can’t imagine this feels good….even if you can get it rubbed in?  You’ll need some slip, slide, and glide…and that will actually help with the soaping.

And definitely improve the preservative.

Just checking….you know Vit. E is NOT a preservative?

[Graillotion]

Agee with ggpetrov, and you could add some starch as well.
Try you CCT neat.
I have found…different batches from different vendors can sometime have dramatic differences.  Stuff that is supposed to absorb like water in a desert…might sit on skin for hours….just cus it is a bad batch.
Consider the 165 series emulsifier….it gives a pretty dry feel, albeit you might not like PEG.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

…does anyone have a suggestion on what I could add that might add a noticeable benefit..?

You have to state the benefit you are looking for.

[Graillotion]

MariaSelma said:

What is the saapping effect” and how to correct the shot??  

“Soaping” effect… what you called foaming…and lengthy time to disappear, and probably the number one reason new people arrive at this site… 
This question has been answered more times than can be counted.  In the upper right corner….there is a search box….type ‘soaping’ click enter….and you will have a free education that money can’t buy! 
The simplest answer to your question is…reduce X-gum and add dimethicone…. but there are other ways.  

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

This is really disheartening. You would think that legally they wouldn’t be able to claim something is “100% natural” or “organic” if it wasn’t but I suppose that’s a bit of an idealistic way of thinking :blush:
Thanks for all the info. It’s incredibly helpful!! 

Many of us have amateur’s have been down that path early on.  I used to buy what I thought were exotic oils like Moringa, Black Seed, and Tamanu… Turned out they were all just veggie oil like you buy in the store.  
You learn VERY quickly….where to buy quality inputs…and it is not on Amazon or e-bay (usually).

[Graillotion]

For me…I am not able to detect a difference…if it is included or excluded from a formula….hence my hope is for some long term soothing effect, and label appeal.

[Graillotion]

Cafe33 said:

Thank you again for your help. 

Can allantoin be added easily to this formula at 0.5%? I have never used this ingredient and I am about to order it. Is 0.5% the absolute minimum usage rate? 

I use allantoin as a claim ingredient…don’t think I can tell a difference with or without.  I guess I am just hoping that long term use has a benefit.

.5% (of water) would be the maximum, beyond that it won’t dissolve. Don’t get caught up with the mommy blogger formulas.

And remember that allantoin should be included at a rate of .5% of your water…… NOT .5% of total formula.  Above that level…it only serves as a derm-abrasive.

[Graillotion]

PhilGeis said:

Add rinse off (esp. surfactant based) or leave on emuslion.

Leave on emulsions….of course!  

[Graillotion]

Esters have been further refined.

Here is a link to a company that specialized in Jojoba Esters.

I can not live without them!

Floratech | Cosmetic Ingredients, Natural, Biodegradable, Jojoba, Botanical, Sustainable, Stable, Oil-Free, Emollients, Scrubbing Beads

[Graillotion]

Thank you Phil.

Another way I like to look at these scenarios, and maybe this will help those just starting out…. Is understanding what a challenge test is.  Let’s just live in the land of unicorns and candy canes for a moment, and say we created a bug free product.  Then we sent this ‘pristine’ product off to be tested.  If you are not familiar with the process….essentially they pollute (inoculate) your pristine product with a number of nasties.  The object of the game is for your product to eliminate these nasties, and return to the original pristine state. 
So if your only focus is on creating something initially without bugs…you have totally missed the point.  Yes…that is a wonderful starting point, but the real game is a products ability to fend off bugs that are introduced over the expected life of the product.

[Graillotion]

EVchem said:

Surprised no one mentioned menthol? If you can tolerate/ like the smell. If you can get the CBD to dissolve (MCT works fine) then you shouldn’t see much problem with emulsions

CBD suppliers who seem to have decent paperwork
https://www.klersun.com/
https://americanhempdistributor.com/

for CBG Amyris just came out with a version dervied from sugarcane so les legal issues.

Would you say menthol works as a pain reliever…or works as a Counterirritant?

[Graillotion]

@Pharma, just for fun….if you were tasked by some big  cosmetic company to formulate a general purpose emulsion preservative system, using three readily available components….what would it be?  And let’s throw on the constraints of no parabens and no formaldehyde.     Knowing you…you will want more details… but this is more an exercise in….One size fits all (which it doesn’t). Ok…you twisted my arm… pH range of 4.8-6.0

And this question is open to all! Let’s have some fun formulating the next great preservative.  Any commentary on your thought process…will be a vital learning experience for me and other readers.

[Graillotion]

Please provide a little more detail:
Complete formula
Type of equipment you used to emulsify, and then stir.
Was water and oil phase…matching temps?

[Graillotion]

I live in Hawaii…where everything cost 2X…

Hawaii Target and WalMart Price for distilled water: $1.27 for 1 gallon.

I can only imagine how cheap it is at your place.

Keep in mind….preservation is not just about what slips in during production….but what gets in as time goes by.  That is why boiling water is somewhat irrelevant. 

[Graillotion]

catanasio said:

Hi @Graillotion! Thank you for all this wonderful information. I’m a newbie here starting out making small batches of lotion. I had a few questions as a follow up to your Dynamic Mixer and setup.

1. Have you used the Dynamic on larger batches? I’m making 1 gallon batches Of lotion and cream and I’m wondering if It will work as well.
2. Where did you purchase the Blender/Homogenizer? I’m in the US AND Katom doesn’t seem to carry it.
3. Do you have it configured on a stand? I found the thread about creating a DIY stand but I’m wondering if I need to get sturdier clamps because of the weight.
4. Are there clamp holders that will let you pivot it at an angle? 

Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much!

1) Yes…I have used it to make lotion….a gallon at a time.  Something thicker like a cream…I would be skeptical it could do a gallon.

2) I think I got it here:
Bakery Supplies & Restaurant Supplies, Pastry tools, bakery & restaurant equipment (bakedeco.com)
but I think this was an option as well:
Restaurant Supplies, Equipment & Design - Bargreen Ellingson

I think neither of them kept it in stock….they just would facilitate an order from the warehouse in Canada.  The part number is AC560

3) Dynamic’s sister company…Misceo…offers a stand designed for it…(I do not have it)… But I think it is something you could craft quite easily.

Just remember….this is a big heavy machine…. NOTHING like what you get from Amazon.  Gets very warm after two minutes of constant use.

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

Agree with the previous comment. You need silicone elastomers not just dimethicone. I would also have a look at ronaflair range https://www.merckgroup.com/en/brands/pm/ronaflair.html

What are some examples of this you would recommend from either:
Lotion Crafters
Formulators Sample Shop
Making Cosmetics

Or similar US based re-packers?

How would you compare those with Polymethylsilsesquioxane?  An added enhancement or redundancy?

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Climatechangeanxiety said:

And secondly, would I HAVE to use GLDA? 

GLDA is a chelator.  Not really a preservative.  That being said, a chelator GREATLY enhances preservation, hence it is part of EVERY conversation regarding preservation (preservation enhancer might be a good description).  Distilled water is low in things that need to be chelated.  Tap water….probably loaded.

What country do you live in…that does not have ready supplies of distilled water?

Do you have a dehumidifier?

Assuming…. ONLY personal use, as you could not state how quickly it is used, if sold!

[Graillotion]

The group can not help you without the formula.

[Graillotion]

Off Topic…can I ask where you buy your L22?  That stuff is crazy expensive whenever I find it.

I have made basically my own version with lower cost Acai sterols and Floratech’s (maker of L22) Mac Nut oil and ethyl macadamiate.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Placebo isn’t a thing of belief, it’s real, proven, and scientific. 40% of pain killer activity is actually placebo effect and it is taken into account by big pharma. We know for example what causes ‘placebo’ pain relief, we can block it with certain drugs and we can provoke it in the few subjects devoid of any by administer the right drugs. What we don’t know is why on earth our body do produce placebo effects. It’s not, or rather not entirely, dependent on conciousness, memory, experience, belief, or the like because it does also exist in babies and animals. It may be to some part the ‘ritual’ (caring for a crying baby or a whining dog) which triggers it? In adults, homoeopathy doesn’t works in a clinical setting (double-blinded etc.) but in real life situations, it does. There are several reasons why, just ask a pregnant woman who’s not allowed to take anything ‘useful’ (chemical). Many would tell you that a tea, some globules or a herbal poultice work great. These probably have a pharmacological action (though weak) but they certainly help because said woman can actually do something actively against her illness/discomfort and it also helps kill time till it gets better by itself. It’s a win and if you don’t ask for the how, it ‘really’ works. Your reality isn’t what is out there, it’s what you perceive, what your brain interprets from a fraction of inputs it gets from your environment.

The world is still a mysterious place full of awe and wonder! From a scientific and psychological point of view, magick (not stage magic) is real (depending on the definition of magick, of course I’m not talking Harry Potter here 🙂 ).

My point exactly….an ingredient list that will almost heal them upon reading. 😉

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

Graillotion said:

For CBD (Isolate) topical…I seem to find a trend of about 1%.  Does that seem reasonable?

seem about right if it doesn’t break your cream but seem expensive.

Has CBD isolate been known to break emulsions?
If so…I can tweak the one I have…as it is not very bullet proof.  I can add some 165 in there….since this one won’t be about the ‘amazing tactile’ experience…  Probably going to be an ugly brown color anyway.
I am already imagining a cream so ugly that only a mother could love it.  Might even use the word ‘salve’ instead of cream.  

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

It’s sublingual/oral dose recommendation.
There’s still no topical recommendation issued yet, the mechanism involved  central nervous system so CBD cream would unlikely works. But who knows it might works for some.

Methyl salicylate, don’t know it is available in cosmetic re-packers?

Since Oregon decriminalizes small amounts of Heroin and Cocaine, you might look into it as well, but be veryyyyyyyyy careful.

For CBD (Isolate) topical…I seem to find a trend of about 1%.  Does that seem reasonable?

Regarding Methyl Salicylate….. Isn’t that pretty much what Wintergreen EO is?

I am looking at Paeonol from Chinese medicine.

I am a FIRM believer in the placebo effect, so some of these ingredients will be included to ‘convince’ people it works.    

Mission accomplished.  

[Graillotion]

I’m with Perry on this one.  Drink the tea while making it, and replace with water.  Then evaluate the difference.

Back when I started…I also used tea….now….NEVER.

Focus on those things that might actually work…. B3, Bisabobol, quality oils and humectants (maybe even ceramides…if you can include enough to be functional).

Customers will buy your product for the smell, texture and packaging.  GT does not enhance either of their trigger points.

Your faith/belief system…in a claim ingredient will not make it functional, lean more towards the science, and less towards the marketing you have seen and read.

Polyphenols  have been used historically as dyes and for tanning garments.  So in high enough levels…might make a self-tanner.

I have sampled literally hundreds of versions of lotions and creams…..and it always goes like this:  Smell…and mind is made up.  If I hand them  4 identical products where only the fragrance is different…they will look me straight in the eye…and tell me how superior the one they like the smell of….performs and feels!   Hate to say it…. Get your fragrance right….and you are almost done. 

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

If you want to play with CBD
Recommended Dose - THC:CBD (1:1) 15 – 60 mg/d

And salicylates for superficial pain.

Is that CBD recommendation….an oral one?
What would the inclusion rate be for a cream?

What form can I readily find salicylates in?  (From cosmetic re-packers?)  The willow bark extracts?

Thank you… I will look into them.