[Graillotion]

Some emulsifiers can be used at room temperature….no heating at all…. So in order for anyone to address your question more directly…. You need to state the emulsifier you are using.

[Graillotion]

Read the mfg instructions.  There is no set temp….each emulsifier has it’s own melting point.  I use Montanov 202, which requires a MUCH high temperature than say… the 165 series (which I also use).  You must also achieve a temp high enough to melt everything you included in the given phases.

If heat and hold came up in your research….your probably barking up the wrong tree.

[Graillotion]

PhilGeis said:

There is no such system.

I thought for sure you and @Perry would have come back with some paraben blend + an F releaser as a one size fits all?  Really…no?  Is pH the limiting factor….of not being able to create a one size fits all?

[Graillotion]

Look at a lot of INCI’s of products you like the feel and performance of.

You can see…they are not often very simple.  Then do your research, and figure out why they added each of those components…what they do…how they change the feel…etc.

If you don’t like a component…figure out what the alternatives are.

[Graillotion]

I use this one:

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/checker-plus-ph-tester-hi98100-plus-hanna-instruments/

They also sell a cheaper one…that measures one less place to the right of the decimal.

[Graillotion]

mikethair said:

Graillotion said:

mikethair said:

We are usually buying in around 30 Kg lots, so not “small pack.” Plus in our part of the world SE Asia, the suppliers are not the same as Cananda - Hawaii. Yes, we sometimes use New Directions (Australia) but you need to be careful in your specs…. we have fund they can sometimes tend towards things like “nature identical oils” which are in fact synthetic.

Yes…I am aware they have some ‘nature identicals’… but have always found them to be well marked / documented…so no issues.

I was looking for thymol for a mosquito lotion….and so tried a ‘natural identical’ Thyme….and is was pretty nasty.   Will not be using it.  Later purchased the real Thyme…and it was delightful.

Thanks for the heads up…and maybe someone read this thread someday will be saved some grief.

[Graillotion]

Cafe33 said:

.

  Yet we have been attacked so far for using cetyl alcohol in our products 

I had not heard of cetyl alcohol being on any ‘naughty lists’.  Are these the people that think anything with the word ‘alcohol’….is drying?

[Graillotion]

Add as little stearic acid as you can get by with.  Add some dimethicone to reduce soaping.

Review the basics….

What is your:

emollient
occlusive
humectant (as mentioned…glycerin…or others)
emulsifier/s….and how will it make my product feel?

Build off of that.  Once you have those fundamentals in place, substitute in better pieces until you have the feel you want.

Note: I just finished a cream that started out pretty elaborate right out of the gate…and took 41 iterations to get it where I was happy.

[Graillotion]

mikethair said:

My business partner and I have allergies to synthetic fragrances, so in our skin & hair care product business we stick with essential oils only. And we only buy from trusted sources… one I have used for around 30 years, and the newest, 10 years. All batches supplied with CoAs. 

Are you willing to share your trusted sources?  Do they sell small pack?

Of all the small pack resellers I have tried, I like New Directions the best.  But always open to a good supplier!  Can never have enough of those.  (Also shipping from Canada to Hawaii….adds up!)

[Graillotion]

domicanica said:

Hmm thanks @Perry your last point was especially helpful and sparked an idea in my head. I was mostly worried about buyer perception but I will go ahead and explore synthetic fragrances as an option. Maybe if I’m transparent enough and make sure to write enough educational material on my website and social media channels people won’t mind.

Hehehe….educating social media?  Many of them operate on ignorance and fear mongering, and don’t dare contradict the blogger they worship. ::wink:
(Don’t leave it open for debate…or that is what you’ll spend your time doing.)  Whatever route you take, do it with confidence.  You can not be all things to all people.

I also use some synthetic fragrances…as long as you can list them as paraben-free and phthalate-free, you will draw in all but the wacko’s.

If there is one thing I have discovered in developing, and especially when I create trials (that I do myself) with people….the absolute first thing they do…even before they allow it to touch their skin….SNIFF SNIFF…  Win the sniff test…you have all but won the battle.

I even do crazy things like give them 3 of the same thing…only scent is different….and they will rave about how superior all aspects of the cream they like the scent of, and how it is superior to the other two products….which only the fragrance is different.

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

Re formula, I am with @Pattsi and @Graillotion, the emulsification system isn’t adequate. Get a proper emulsifier. I always suggest Arlacel 165 (ala lotionpro 165, aka Glyceryl Steatate+ PEG-100 stearate) 

I use the 165 series on two of my products.  Quite simply the easiest to use, and most stable….sometimes we say ‘bullet proof’ as an emulsifier.  And in both cases I use a strong co-emulsifiers to support it.  In all but one case I back up my primary emulsifier with GSC (Glyceryl stearate citrate).  Please don’t confuse that with Glyceryl stearate!  Of course I also support the overall emulsion with fatty alcohols (different ones for different applications).

Tip: You emulsifier of choice…will have a dramatic effect on the feel of your product.  If you choose an emulsifier that is not elegant to start with, it becomes much more difficult to formulate ‘elegance’ back into it.

[Graillotion]

domicanica said:

Hmmm @Graillotion are all those 3% oils on the NDA website basically plant extracts/essential oils just diluted in carrier oils?

No…they are not essential oils (albeit, I guess it depends on your definition of ‘essential oil’).  You can search the process, they actually distill from the flowers…hence so expensive.

[Graillotion]

domicanica said:

Hmmm @Graillotion are all those 3% oils on the NDA website basically plant extracts/essential oils just diluted in carrier oils? For instance from my research lotus essential oil doesn’t seem to be a thing but it seems like they’ve maybe extracted an aromatic part of the lotus flower and added it to an oil…seems like a great way to keep the ingredient list natural while still incorporating an attractive scent… Thank you for that, I’m going to look into those.

Yes….the link I sent…was 3% absolute mixed with 97% Jojoba.  If you have the money…they offer the same thing…in 100% absolutes.

Rose Absolute - Bulgaria - Exotic Scent of Rose - Wholesale Prices (newdirectionsaromatics.com)

Then you can mix them however you deem fit.

[Graillotion]

I am in a similar situation.

I kept dreaming I could create a good scent with essential oils….to this day…I have not been able to create a scent I would pay money for.

With artificial scents…there can literally be 100’s of ingredients in a single fragrance….and you have little idea what is in there.  Other than getting a few tags of:  _______ FREE…that is all you know.

In my latest project, I finally found a natural scent that I, and so far, all my testers have appreciated:

Rose Bulgarian 3% Dilution at Wholesale prices (newdirectionsaromatics.com)

First of all….let me say…50% of testers will be repulsed by artificial rose… Those same testers…will usually like real rose.  This is a pricey option, and this product will take every bit of .5% to be effective.  I use phenethyl alcohol as part of my preservative system, and this really helps to enhance this scent.

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

@ngarayeva001
@Pattsi
@Graillotion

For what it’s worth, the manufacturer claims that its lecithin (as sole emulsifier) can handle up to 10x its weight in oil (e.g., 0.8% should be enough for 8% oil).  https://www.cargill.com/personal-care/applications/skin-care-face

Regardless, I do have sorbitan stearate on hand.  How does glyceryl stearate compare?  I need something that is really non-comedogenic.  

Thank you.

First of all…if you believe all the propaganda that the mfg’s put out….there is probably no hope.  Secondly…when you calculate…you base the calculation on everything in the oil phase…not just the oil.  
Lecithin might make a good salad dressing, but will it provide an elegant product?  Even if it could hold it together, imagine the feel.
There are plenty of plant based emulsifiers that have a 0 rating for comedogenic, and actually work.

Just a hint….essentially everyone in the industry uses co-emulsifiers with emulsifiers that are monumentally better than lecithin…. go figure.  When a mfg states their emulsifier is ‘stand alone’….move on!  (Start reading books again.)

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

Lecithin alone is not quite stable in long term, and you sure 0.8 is enough?

Bingo!

[Graillotion]

Lauryl Laurate

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Hi, all.
I have created a couple of oil-in-water products recently that looked perfectly fine on Day 1 and Day 2, and then starting about a week later (stored at around 75 degrees Fahrenheit) began to show minor signs of separation/unevenness.  

1. What is typically the first place you look when addressing this kind of issue?  Is it insufficient (%-wise) emulsifier?  
2. Also, does ethanol (added during cool down) lessen stability?

Thank you.

We can not begin to ‘guess’ what your issues are.  If you are looking for answers we need to know the details.  Formula with percentages, process etc.

The issues could be down many different avenues, from not using a primary emulsifier, to not using enough emulsifier, to having antagonist in the formula, so not following emulsifiers specific directions….(temp etc).  

If you are looking for answers, post your formula, pH, and technique/process.  We have actually seen people try and make emulsions with a whisk.  

[Graillotion]

What was your inclusion rate, and pH?

[Graillotion]

Perry said:

@Graillotion - I will look into that. I thought it opened up a new window but I guess sometimes it doesn’t.

At least with the browsers I use… 100% of the time, it opens in the currant page, so the forum is gone, whenever I click on a posted link.

I’m one of those nut jobs that reads all the links.

[Graillotion]

Speaking of links and the site, @Perry, just throwing this out there….but on the forum whenever you click on a link…it takes you off the site.  Is there anyway you can make them open in a new window?  Just a thought.

[Graillotion]

TheSocksTooBig said:

Also like to mention. Some distributor say their shea butter is ultra refined but it’s not. lotioncrafter’s refined shea butter was much better than some ultra refined version. It was lighter, more creamy, whiter, and no odour 

There is no definition for refined and ultra refined.  Just perception.  

[Graillotion]

The small companies are less likely to have a chemist on staff.  As I have learned in my journey, there are so many pitfalls on the way to success, one either needs access to a chemist, or a chemist on staff.

We left out the mid-size brands….I have seen more sketchy labels at that level…than anywhere else. (non viable preservative systems….yet their products seem to last and last???)

[Graillotion]

aedina said:

Thank you for your insight.

 I am from EU and l have just started formulating. l bought so so many cold-pressed organic butters, oils and extracts that l am really embarrassed about it…But it is good to learn from mistakes and this website does help a lot.

 l originally wanted to combine synthetic ingredients with the best natural ingredients l could find. 

Hey… the fact that you kept trying after discovering less that ideal products says a lot.  I went through the exact same thing, and it is all about moving past the hurdles in the search for quality.

I also formulate with the theme of using naturals where I can, and incorporating some key synthetics where prudent.

I have found ICSC to be very communicative…so just reach out to them…tell them where you live, and ask whom might be a re-seller of their product…or even ask for a sample….they have sent me many.

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

@graillotion:

 Did you try Etsy? … LOL!

Hehehehe…. I was trying to minimize my failures….not maximize them! 

I got it mostly figured out now….I just had an upcoming project where I needed some Andiroba…and my usual suppliers did not have it…so I was having the branch out.