[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

My suggestion….I have been down that road….make it with and without….see if you can feel a difference.   If not…leave it out.  If not…and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%…it shouldn’t stink up the product…and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.)  

(ohh…and my new products do not include it…)

Great suggesting to use it at 1%…

OMG…you badly misread my statement… That would be POINT one percent.  That is the rate most claim ingredients are included at.

And ummh….B5 level…way high.  Where are you getting these inclusion rates???  (Sounds like someone is trying to sell ingredients!)

Guessing you are adding way too much allantoin as well… it will only dissolve (point five percent) .5 percent of your water….Not formula….WATER.  Hence….in my latest cream, the max I can put into solution is point 26 percent…aka 1/4 of one percent.  Anything higher than that it does not go into solution and simply becomes an abrasive.

The sky is the limit when it comes to claim ingredients: snail slime, placenta, amethyst, gold, silver, meteorite or caviar.   

Hehehe….sorry I use those as part of my marketing….(What my products DON’T contain.)

I try and use claim ingredients that have at least a hint of scientific support…so maybe look at an oil high in GLA….or Bisabolol and Niacinamide.  The market loves HA.

Keep in mind….if you use silk…I believe it can no longer be considered….Vegan.

Ohh!! Yes, point 1 is quite different!! And I only use Allantoin at point 3 (.3) percent in my formulations.  I also prefer to use claim ingredients that have at least some scientifically proven benefit. I wouldn’t feel right about using ingredients that have absolutely zero benefit. I have searched for conclusive data on Panthenol and whether or not it actually has any benefits and I have yet to find anything from a reliable source or study backed white papers on that. The suggested usage rate for Panthenol in skincare products is 1-5%…is 2% too high still? And yeah, the silk peptides are not considered vegan, which I don’t like either.

Hmmm…guess I have a bunch of Panthenol AND silk peptides that I won’t be using ????

Oh….use the panthenol….just cut the rate.  You were looking for good ‘claim’ ingredients….it would be one!!! (Not meaning supported by science…but something that makes many customers feel warm and fuzzy.)  

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

I had to learn that the hard way with quite a few different butters ????

Butters and scent…directly correlate to level of cleanliness and refinement.  Want any butter you can dream about…without the scent…. Look at the refined Danish butters sold at MYO… In a class by themselves.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

My suggestion….I have been down that road….make it with and without….see if you can feel a difference.   If not…leave it out.  If not…and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%…it shouldn’t stink up the product…and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.)  

(ohh…and my new products do not include it…)

Great suggesting to use it at 1%…

OMG…you badly misread my statement… That would be POINT one percent.  That is the rate most claim ingredients are included at.

And ummh….B5 level…way high.  Where are you getting these inclusion rates???  (Sounds like someone is trying to sell ingredients!)

Guessing you are adding way too much allantoin as well… it will only dissolve (point five percent) .5 percent of your water….Not formula….WATER.  Hence….in my latest cream, the max I can put into solution is point 26 percent…aka 1/4 of one percent.  Anything higher than that it does not go into solution and simply becomes an abrasive.

The sky is the limit when it comes to claim ingredients: snail slime, placenta, amethyst, gold, silver, meteorite or caviar.   

Hehehe….sorry I use those as part of my marketing….(What my products DON’T contain.)

I try and use claim ingredients that have at least a hint of scientific support…so maybe look at an oil high in GLA….or Bisabolol and Niacinamide.  The market loves HA.

Keep in mind….if you use silk…I believe it can no longer be considered….Vegan.

[Graillotion]

My suggestion….I have been down that road….make it with and without….see if you can feel a difference.   If not…leave it out.  If not…and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%…it shouldn’t stink up the product…and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.)  

(ohh…and my new products do not include it…)

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

@Graillotion it’s Hyacross from Bloomage, they manufacture various HAs and Polyglutamic acids. 0.5% to 1% should be sufficient. 

Don’t suppose I can get the same effect, with an 1% HA solution and a polymeric?

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

 my preference is the HA crosspolymer since i find that the performance is more significant in humid climates. 

What is the name of the HA crosspolymer you are working with?  I love new things.  

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Graillotion said:

…differentiate a more caring feeling… enhanced occlusiveness…

What did I tell you . BTW this effect will likely be even more pronounced in a colder and/or drier climate than yours.

Why a high price? Your special island import fee? ;(

I have only been able to source it at Making Cosmetics….where everything is sold at a premium price.

Well let me know about that colder climate thing….in about three weeks. 😉  (And how you like wasabi mac nuts. :blush: )

[Graillotion]

Are you asking about stability (does not separate)….or preservation (germs, mold, yeast…etc).

If stability….use a centrifuge.  If you don’t have that….put in a clear container and place it in your sunniest window. Generally toss in a couple cycles in the freezer as well.  That will give a rudimentary result.

[Graillotion]

ETcellphone said:

Graillotion said:

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. In your experience, what has been the best ingredient that eliminates drag? You said you use a humectant blend, do you feel like each of them has a unique ability to increase slip, and so cumulatively they perform better together than one by itself?:smile:

Do you remember why butylene glycol didn’t make your cut? Did propylene glycol make your cut, however?

Do you have any opinion on HA vs these glycols, propanediol,etc? I am interested in trying glycereth-26 too, seems like it would be in this category of moisturizing humectant-solvents. I can’t find a supplier though  

I have no idea what level formulator you are, and what you have on hand.  So I will try and answer your questions as though I was working through them.  I make rather complicated formulas….tend to buy every possible combination of ingredients…and try them all.  My last cream took 41 tries to get what I wanted.  I micro-manage every aspect of my formulas.  I feel process and equipment is as important as what goes into them.

Well…lets see what we can come up with.  How to eliminate drag… First…I would try not to introduce drag….as in…if you don’t introduce it…there is that much less that you have to eliminate.   I follow the principle taught to me by my mentor…of cascading emollients.  So other than water, Isoamyl Laurate is my most used ingredient.  Depending on the formula…I will create the 3-D cascading effect with some of the following: IPM, Lauryl Laurate, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Coco-Caprylate/Caprate, Cetyl Esters (helps thicken), dimethicone, cyclomethicone (love this one at 1%), C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate (when I want some scent retention) and of course thickener/emulsifiers like Aristoflex and carbomer.  That being said….your primary emulsifier is also critical….if you use a draggy waxy emulsifier…you have that much more to overcome.

For each formula…depending on goals… I will retest this collection and pair those that best match the goals…. so if quick absorbing is word of the day…I’ll use those….if lingering emolliency is what I am chasing…than some of the slower absorbing ones can be used.  Once you get used to the players…common sense fills in the blanks pretty easily.  Most beginners….don’t use nearly enough of this grouping.  To make products amazing….these groupings should be around 10% of your formula.

Regarding: Do you remember why butylene glycol didn’t make your cut? Did propylene glycol make your cut, however?

I use neither.  Mainly because of their perception (by customers) ….and better alternatives.  I guess I would say…why use PG when you could use Propanediol???  The non petrol based versions of BG….did not absorb…it was like adding Vaseline, there were simply way better glycols for my purpose.

Regarding: Do you have any opinion on HA vs these glycols, propanediol….

My primary purpose with the glycols is preservation…so I am looking at binding free water…(plenty in the archives on this).  So I do not view them as interchangeable with HA.  I think most in this group (myself included) believe HA is way over hyped.  That said…I use it in everything…hey…gotta market this stuff.  Plenty of good stuff in the archive on this…but basic premise is….the HA is your product is 100% hydrated….so how can it add any water once applied????  Chew on that one for a few hours. 

If you truly want to learn and explore the worlds of humectants….create a very simple bare bones formula….little more than an emulsifier, emollient, barrier, and then sub a different humectant in…and make it over and over.  Then see which one hydrates your skin (or target market skin) the best…and use the ones that work best for your goal.  You can never hit the target…if you don’t set goals. 

Good Luck in you journey.

[Graillotion]

EXCELLENT points from Perry and Mark.  If you are going to provide a quality and consistent product, you need quality and consistent suppliers….chasing the low cost leader…will ultimately probably cause your venture to fail.

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

Hydrogenated polyisobutene would work anywhere where squalane does. I use it as an affordable squala replacement. Also it’s non polar, which means better stability, and versatility. 

I used it for the first time yesterday, in a lite lotion formula (at 1.5%).  Texturally…I could not perceive a difference upon application.  However, within a minute of application, I could begin to differentiate a more caring feeling on the polyisobutene hand and arm.  It was applied before bedtime, and there was a definite advantage the following morning.  I would attribute that to the enhanced occlusiveness it provided.  So, it seems to enhance the occlusive properties of a hand and body lotion (at a high price).

[Graillotion]

For the record…I use glycerin in all my formulas….but I use a humectant blend.  (Partly to avoid stickiness, and drag, and I have no idea what climate my product will end up in.)

Also, as with all my ingredients…I buy the smallest size from all of my suppliers….Butylene glycol as an example (which did not make my final cut)… the variation between how it felt and absorbed was astonishing….vendor to vendor.

[Graillotion]

Not really….

I do this with every liquid ingredient that passes through my hands….

Make a grid on your arm…. apply…. take notes….observe….feel your skin 15 min later.

When I did that test…. propanediol actually had water bead up on my skin….none of the other did that. (I live in super high humidity Hawaii.) It will also give you a feel for the inherent stickiness of many of the humectants. 

Yes… They have similar effects in formulation….but if you do some achive searches…you will see they perform slightly differently at different humidities…hence why some of blend our humectants.  Also some are more sticky than others.

Propanediol and natural betaine are my favorites of the group.

If it is all about cost….glycerin is cheaper than bottled water.

Want to make your product feel wetter….try pentylene glycol.

[Graillotion]

I have a real company…but throw away email address (long story, and I am lazy and cheap.)….and I get about a 60% take rate on ULP.

You have to sign up…and they actually do a surprising amount of vetting.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

helenhelen said:

 

 All work well at low levels (0.5% or less). Pomegranate Sterols provides long-lasting, deep moisturisation but is even thicker and tackier than pure lanolin.. and will reduce slip. It’s a completely different feel and performance to Acai Sterols which I know you already use. Phyto-Oil C3 stinks like plastic fake leather… which I think is from the fatty acids… but it heals skin immediately and I haven’t found anything as good at that… but I can’t get over the smell. Phytosteryl Macadamiate adds substantivity like Pomegranate Sterols but is less tacky and more elegant in feel.

Yes, I am using the acai sterols (at that rate)…and love what they have done.  @Pharma had originally recommended the Mac nut sterols….but for the life of me…could not find them at any kind of reasonable price.  (Would have really helped with my Hawaiian theme!)

I guess I did not realize there would be any type of textural / performance  difference between the feedstock of Acai vs pomegranate sterols.  I think I just went with the acai…cus it was cheaper.

I would love to hear you elaborate….on those differences in detail.  Eventually….I will get around to finishing my night cream…..right now I am taking a formulating break….hehehe….good to be retired.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Estolides are polymerised fatty acids: These are huge molecules and when theoretically thinking about it, I imagined Meadowestolide EXACTLY the way @helenhelen describes! It should be a good film former though and keep water in the skin longer (vaseline-like)… something your night cream might, at low inclusion rate, actually profit from (and the body it likely gives would set it apart from the day version).

On the other hand, higher molecular weight hydrogenated polyisobutene (available also from renewable resources) might be a better option and comes in different grades. Check our Emulgade SUCRO (not sure if the HPI is actually of natural origin or petrochemistry derived) or Vitabiosol S.

Funny you should bring up polyisobutene….as I have it on the shelf….bought it for the day cream…but actually never tried it in formula (I have the 250).  I guess when I tried it neat…there was no ‘ah ha’ moment….or parting of the clouds.  I would love to hear you elaborate on Polyisobutene, and it’s uses….or maybe what it replaces.  I think the other reason I never went to formula with it….it was a bit expensive, and I didn’t think it would enhance the INCI.

As you know…. I use acai sterols in the cream with hydrolyzed jojoba esters with a lite kiss of dimethicone, and have no lack of barrier function.  (The night cream did have an elevated amount of acai sterols.)

@@ngarayeva001 I bought the Polyisobutene 250 after one of our chats….I would love to hear you also chime in on how awesome it is…and where it fits…

Thank You all.

[Graillotion]

helenhelen said:

Another material you could try, that actually reminds me of Meadowestolide is AvenaPLex:

“AvenaPLex (Avena sativa (Oat) Kernel Extract) is a complex of skin identical lipids (including ceramides, phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylethanolamine) that delivers the short-term and long-term protection of aged skin. Thanks to its unique composition, AvenaPLex assists in the rapid absorption of skin beneficial molecules, supplements skin lipids, aids the strengthening of the dermis and helps prevent the loss of skin elasticity and firmness.”

It’s very thick, sticky and draggy. It had some positive effect on moisturisation but I would choose the three previously mentioned ingredients over it.

Thank you for your detailed comments.  Yes, I currently use Acai sterols to fill this gap, and it seems to work well.  Just always open to new things….if they work better.

[Graillotion]

tianaloveorganics said:

.

thank you so much for this yes lol I will never purchase ingredients from amazon the supplier what I’m using is 
lotion crafter 
bulk apothecary 
formulator sample shop 
wholesale supplier plus 
essential wholesale 
and ingredients to die for 

and i will looking on all there website to see who has the cheapest price for example i bought most of my thing from lotion crafter but i notice ingredients to die for have cheaper so i was going to switch when the ingredients are done 

Note on ITDF….. There are over a month out on shipping…. so allow for that!
I use two of their exclusive products….and it has really put a kink in my supply chain.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

Always check with the reseller or repacker if they are from the same manufacturers to keep the material as consistent as possible. Some materials might have inconsistencies from batch to batch, so you will have to take note on that even if it’s from the same manufacturer.  

By its very nature….Natural products vary from batch to batch….or they wouldn’t be natural. 😉

The more refined a natural product is….the less variation you will get batch to batch…hence the MYO Danish butters….are extremely consistent, batch to batch.

[Graillotion]

domicanica said:

Hey @Graillotion, I’m just wondering if you have an opinion on Essential Wholesale, Wholesale Supplies Plus and Making Cosmetics?

I use MC extensively, as they are one of the few sources of some of the unique specialty items I use.  Couldn’t live without them.  However I have never tried their oils and butters.

Essential Wholesale….I just never got around to trying them.  But I believe they are reputable.

[Graillotion]

OMG….. There is HUGE differences between re-packers.  Buy the smallest amount first…and compare to what you are using.  My trash can is FULL of cheaper products.  Many products from reputable re-sellers are so sub par they cannot be used in discerning products.

I buy every ingredient from each of my 5 suppliers…compare on skin neat, and then buy the best, no matter the price.

I will tell you this, Here are my top 5 repackers….and I will also tell you whom has the best oil most often…and the best butters ALL of the time.

New Directions …. Typically wins the oil quality test
Make Your Own…. Best butters… refined in Denmark..runner up on oils.
Formulators Sample Shop
Lotion Crafters
Noble Roots…. is phasing out small sales…but had amazing quality.  Example…their Mac Nut Oil is Floratech…simply the best. 

Stuff from Amazon or e-bay….don’t bother even trying….straight to the trash.  (Not just low quality….usually fake.)

[Graillotion]

First of all…. Most beginners usually put 10-20X the amount of Vitamin E in that they need, so you would still be in good shape if you lost much of it.  However…that will never happen.

Not endorsing the following link….but it should help.  Also keep in mind this article is using scientific C, not American F.  So you will never even approach the temps listed, nor the times.

You are in great shape adding it whenever you want.

You did not state the form of Vitamin E you are using?

Thermal stability of Tocopherol - Swettis Beauty Blog (skinchakra.eu)

[Graillotion]

Discovery said:

I make topical CBD nanoemulsions using either plant based ingredients or all organic. No PEGs or polysorbates. They are great and I get rave reviews. Non greasy and works really fast (I am told). Happy to help you out with any questions you may have about this type of product.

dgnanotechinc@gmail.com

I was on my way to something similar, but found that the frankincense oleo resin just by itself was sooo effective, kinda put this project on the back burner.  Note to future readers… Frankincense EO has no such effect, it is essentially just a fragrance oil.  All the good stuff is left on the wrong side of the distiller. 

Hehehhe….so if anyone is interested in 500 grams of Paeonol….send me a message…I will sell at wholesale cost.

Thanx for the info… If I jump back on this project, we can compare notes.  I had a pretty elaborate product going, with excellent results with all my chronic friends.  Someone on this site is the brightest mind in this field!  (Not me.)

And Yes….I had CBD and PEA in there, as well as Paeonol.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Perry said:

No, Polyquaterniums are not heat sensitive. It’s usually more convenient to add them in the water phase as you heat it. But you can add it to the cool down phase too. That may make it go in the solution more quickly. Although if it is a powder that might cause “fish eyes” (globs of undissolved polymer) so you want to add it early.

The bottom line is that it depends on the system. But no, polyquats are not heat sensitive.

Thanks for clarifying that Perry. Yes, it is definitely more convenient to add them to the water phase! And then what about Vitamin E..? Is that heat sensitive or not? I have read conflicting information multiple times on whether this ingredient should be added to cool down or not. 
Thank you!!

Vitamin E will function as intended with the temps used to melt emulsifiers, and for the short duration you are at those temps.  

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

 emulsifies dimethicone like nothing else does.
 

Speaking of specialty emulsifiers….  I have a very difficult emulsion using 165 and GSC.  The formula  contains mixed EO’s at 3%.  It appears as though the EO’s start to ‘leak out’ of the emulsion after 6 months of my torture test…( half full clear containers in my sunniest window).

So I was wondering if there was an emulsifier that I could use as a co… that is known to really handle the EO’s well?  I am not 100% sure that it is the EO’s, as the formula also contains 2.5% vanillin….which is just a B%#@h to work with.

Finally got the oxidation licked….just need to figure out what is leaching out of the formula.  Note:  This does not occur when I treat the formula with respect…(colored container…out of the sunlight all day…everyday.)  It also does not occur to my  regular lotions that do not contain vanillin and EO’s which live through the same test.  They are spot on….6-8 months later.  The standard lotion deviates in that is uses Varisoft EQ 65 as the co in lieu of GSC.

Would love to hear thoughts on best emulsifier for EO’s.