[Graillotion]

helenhelen said:

 

 All work well at low levels (0.5% or less). Pomegranate Sterols provides long-lasting, deep moisturisation but is even thicker and tackier than pure lanolin.. and will reduce slip. It’s a completely different feel and performance to Acai Sterols which I know you already use. Phyto-Oil C3 stinks like plastic fake leather… which I think is from the fatty acids… but it heals skin immediately and I haven’t found anything as good at that… but I can’t get over the smell. Phytosteryl Macadamiate adds substantivity like Pomegranate Sterols but is less tacky and more elegant in feel.

Yes, I am using the acai sterols (at that rate)…and love what they have done.  @Pharma had originally recommended the Mac nut sterols….but for the life of me…could not find them at any kind of reasonable price.  (Would have really helped with my Hawaiian theme!)

I guess I did not realize there would be any type of textural / performance  difference between the feedstock of Acai vs pomegranate sterols.  I think I just went with the acai…cus it was cheaper.

I would love to hear you elaborate….on those differences in detail.  Eventually….I will get around to finishing my night cream…..right now I am taking a formulating break….hehehe….good to be retired.

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Pharma said:

Estolides are polymerised fatty acids: These are huge molecules and when theoretically thinking about it, I imagined Meadowestolide EXACTLY the way @helenhelen describes! It should be a good film former though and keep water in the skin longer (vaseline-like)… something your night cream might, at low inclusion rate, actually profit from (and the body it likely gives would set it apart from the day version).

On the other hand, higher molecular weight hydrogenated polyisobutene (available also from renewable resources) might be a better option and comes in different grades. Check our Emulgade SUCRO (not sure if the HPI is actually of natural origin or petrochemistry derived) or Vitabiosol S.

Funny you should bring up polyisobutene….as I have it on the shelf….bought it for the day cream…but actually never tried it in formula (I have the 250).  I guess when I tried it neat…there was no ‘ah ha’ moment….or parting of the clouds.  I would love to hear you elaborate on Polyisobutene, and it’s uses….or maybe what it replaces.  I think the other reason I never went to formula with it….it was a bit expensive, and I didn’t think it would enhance the INCI.

As you know…. I use acai sterols in the cream with hydrolyzed jojoba esters with a lite kiss of dimethicone, and have no lack of barrier function.  (The night cream did have an elevated amount of acai sterols.)

@@ngarayeva001 I bought the Polyisobutene 250 after one of our chats….I would love to hear you also chime in on how awesome it is…and where it fits…

Thank You all.

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helenhelen said:

Another material you could try, that actually reminds me of Meadowestolide is AvenaPLex:

“AvenaPLex (Avena sativa (Oat) Kernel Extract) is a complex of skin identical lipids (including ceramides, phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylethanolamine) that delivers the short-term and long-term protection of aged skin. Thanks to its unique composition, AvenaPLex assists in the rapid absorption of skin beneficial molecules, supplements skin lipids, aids the strengthening of the dermis and helps prevent the loss of skin elasticity and firmness.”

It’s very thick, sticky and draggy. It had some positive effect on moisturisation but I would choose the three previously mentioned ingredients over it.

Thank you for your detailed comments.  Yes, I currently use Acai sterols to fill this gap, and it seems to work well.  Just always open to new things….if they work better.

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tianaloveorganics said:

.

thank you so much for this yes lol I will never purchase ingredients from amazon the supplier what I’m using is 
lotion crafter 
bulk apothecary 
formulator sample shop 
wholesale supplier plus 
essential wholesale 
and ingredients to die for 

and i will looking on all there website to see who has the cheapest price for example i bought most of my thing from lotion crafter but i notice ingredients to die for have cheaper so i was going to switch when the ingredients are done 

Note on ITDF….. There are over a month out on shipping…. so allow for that!
I use two of their exclusive products….and it has really put a kink in my supply chain.

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jemolian said:

Always check with the reseller or repacker if they are from the same manufacturers to keep the material as consistent as possible. Some materials might have inconsistencies from batch to batch, so you will have to take note on that even if it’s from the same manufacturer.  

By its very nature….Natural products vary from batch to batch….or they wouldn’t be natural. 😉

The more refined a natural product is….the less variation you will get batch to batch…hence the MYO Danish butters….are extremely consistent, batch to batch.

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domicanica said:

Hey @Graillotion, I’m just wondering if you have an opinion on Essential Wholesale, Wholesale Supplies Plus and Making Cosmetics?

I use MC extensively, as they are one of the few sources of some of the unique specialty items I use.  Couldn’t live without them.  However I have never tried their oils and butters.

Essential Wholesale….I just never got around to trying them.  But I believe they are reputable.

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OMG….. There is HUGE differences between re-packers.  Buy the smallest amount first…and compare to what you are using.  My trash can is FULL of cheaper products.  Many products from reputable re-sellers are so sub par they cannot be used in discerning products.

I buy every ingredient from each of my 5 suppliers…compare on skin neat, and then buy the best, no matter the price.

I will tell you this, Here are my top 5 repackers….and I will also tell you whom has the best oil most often…and the best butters ALL of the time.

New Directions …. Typically wins the oil quality test
Make Your Own…. Best butters… refined in Denmark..runner up on oils.
Formulators Sample Shop
Lotion Crafters
Noble Roots…. is phasing out small sales…but had amazing quality.  Example…their Mac Nut Oil is Floratech…simply the best. 

Stuff from Amazon or e-bay….don’t bother even trying….straight to the trash.  (Not just low quality….usually fake.)

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First of all…. Most beginners usually put 10-20X the amount of Vitamin E in that they need, so you would still be in good shape if you lost much of it.  However…that will never happen.

Not endorsing the following link….but it should help.  Also keep in mind this article is using scientific C, not American F.  So you will never even approach the temps listed, nor the times.

You are in great shape adding it whenever you want.

You did not state the form of Vitamin E you are using?

Thermal stability of Tocopherol - Swettis Beauty Blog (skinchakra.eu)

[Graillotion]

Discovery said:

I make topical CBD nanoemulsions using either plant based ingredients or all organic. No PEGs or polysorbates. They are great and I get rave reviews. Non greasy and works really fast (I am told). Happy to help you out with any questions you may have about this type of product.

dgnanotechinc@gmail.com

I was on my way to something similar, but found that the frankincense oleo resin just by itself was sooo effective, kinda put this project on the back burner.  Note to future readers… Frankincense EO has no such effect, it is essentially just a fragrance oil.  All the good stuff is left on the wrong side of the distiller. 

Hehehhe….so if anyone is interested in 500 grams of Paeonol….send me a message…I will sell at wholesale cost.

Thanx for the info… If I jump back on this project, we can compare notes.  I had a pretty elaborate product going, with excellent results with all my chronic friends.  Someone on this site is the brightest mind in this field!  (Not me.)

And Yes….I had CBD and PEA in there, as well as Paeonol.

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abierose said:

Perry said:

No, Polyquaterniums are not heat sensitive. It’s usually more convenient to add them in the water phase as you heat it. But you can add it to the cool down phase too. That may make it go in the solution more quickly. Although if it is a powder that might cause “fish eyes” (globs of undissolved polymer) so you want to add it early.

The bottom line is that it depends on the system. But no, polyquats are not heat sensitive.

Thanks for clarifying that Perry. Yes, it is definitely more convenient to add them to the water phase! And then what about Vitamin E..? Is that heat sensitive or not? I have read conflicting information multiple times on whether this ingredient should be added to cool down or not. 
Thank you!!

Vitamin E will function as intended with the temps used to melt emulsifiers, and for the short duration you are at those temps.  

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chemicalmatt said:

 emulsifies dimethicone like nothing else does.
 

Speaking of specialty emulsifiers….  I have a very difficult emulsion using 165 and GSC.  The formula  contains mixed EO’s at 3%.  It appears as though the EO’s start to ‘leak out’ of the emulsion after 6 months of my torture test…( half full clear containers in my sunniest window).

So I was wondering if there was an emulsifier that I could use as a co… that is known to really handle the EO’s well?  I am not 100% sure that it is the EO’s, as the formula also contains 2.5% vanillin….which is just a B%#@h to work with.

Finally got the oxidation licked….just need to figure out what is leaching out of the formula.  Note:  This does not occur when I treat the formula with respect…(colored container…out of the sunlight all day…everyday.)  It also does not occur to my  regular lotions that do not contain vanillin and EO’s which live through the same test.  They are spot on….6-8 months later.  The standard lotion deviates in that is uses Varisoft EQ 65 as the co in lieu of GSC.

Would love to hear thoughts on best emulsifier for EO’s.

[Graillotion]

careyu said:

 do you think it helps me to learn or form partnerships when people are trying to shame me?  

I know you are new to the site….so let me just give a kind insight to what has happened here.  As you are probably aware this is a science based site, which makes it different from most.  So your mention of EWG immediately put many on edge.  The best example that can come to my mind would be like this…. Would you wear a red Trump MAGA hat to the democratic convention?

People on this site have been incredibly helpful to me…and many other new comers.  The only thing that matters is that you are willing to learn and are open minded to science.  Some of the most brilliant chemist in the world frequent this site, an opportunity that is absolutely priceless.  I believe they enjoy sharing their craft with the newbies, and those that are totally immersing themselves in learning the industry from a scientific point of view.  What is not appreciated is waving the flag of a polarizing organization whom does not put science first.

It is fine if you personally want to hold to those beliefs, or market to those who do… just don’t wave it in the face of those who have not drunk the EWG kool-aid.  Please take this as a positive comment, that will allow you to meld with the group nicely.  It is a tool that cannot be matched anywhere else on the net.

You don’t want to alienate yourself with with anyone on this site…you never know, that person might be the most valuable texturizing asset on the site.   

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careyu  I am open if any other chemists would like to collaborate on this project.  thanks!   

I believe working with a chemist, and EWG are essentially, mutually exclusive.  You may want to try some sites (and there are many) more oriented to your beliefs.

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Pattsi said:

Flip cap with squeeze bottle, if your formula’s not thin enough when you reach the bottom would problem.
what is you bottle volume?
Tube is more manageable. There’s 225-250 ml airless bottle (olay model) from China (forgot the company name) - pretty cheap but looks pretty cheap too.

Do you have a link on those airless bottles?

I have a product that is prone to oxidation….and I had been looking at some 150ml airless bottles…but cost was $2.00 per unit (good quality, they sent me samples). I could use those bigger sizes as well.

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I decided to thin the formula a touch…and switch to a flip cap.

Saves $$$

And production is much easier.

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I ended up landing on Tetrasodium glutamate diacetate.

Any negatives with that one?

[Graillotion]

Well…I believe any co emulsifier is better than none.  But ultimately it is about making the best possible pairing.  Not only does the mfg recommend an anionic….but so does my genius chemist.  

[Graillotion]

If you dig to the bottom of the M 68 instruction sheet…you will discover they recommend always pairing it with an anionic o/w emulsifier.  Add Glyceryl stearate citrate at .5-.75%, and increase your M 68 to 4%…and I believe you will be happy.  (Please don’t confuse GSC for GS or GS SE.)

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

Keep your polyacrylate crosspolymer in there.

Mont 202 will make it shinier. (Also pair with GSC.)

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Really?! Well I guess I’m glad I did purchase the Babassu oil then! I can’t believe I never looked at the comedogenic rating for it yet since that is usually one of the first things I do when purchasing new-to-me oils. 
And I haven’t purchased anything from NDA yet but I have used MYO in the past.
Thanks!!

When I am sourcing ingredients for a product….I’ll typically buy the same product from LC, FSS, NDA and MYO, (and Noble Roots in the past)….and compare them.  Absolutely jaw dropping how they will vary from vendor to vendor.

NDA will almost always win.

Except butters….MYO…hands down the best.  (They sell the good Danish stuff!)

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abierose said:

@Graillotion Did you ever find or come up with an effective preservative system that could handle the colloidal oatmeal? I’m using it in a couple of lotions I make and it is literally the only thing I have ever seen mold (which happened at about 3 months). 

Also, I use it in conjunction with hydrolyzed oats in one product…would this have the same preservative challenges as the colloidal oatmeal?

Yes…colloidal oatmeal is a super food for bugs.  Any purchased hydrolyzed product will all ready be preserved, so less of a concern.  However, as you blend it out in a formula, it could again become a concern (bugfood) if your preservative system is not on point.  But the whole formula will be at risk for the same reason…oat products or not.  These issues are easily handled with a paraben blend, or some of the F releasers.  If you choose the more difficult route of working around those two preservatives….better be sharp on your chemistry.  I work with a chemist that keeps me in line.  If you don’t have that luxury…stick with the afore mentioned preservatives.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

helenhelen said:

Maybe look up octyldodecanol..

Babassu oil is a nice light oil that is solid at room temperature (low melting point though).

And I do have Babassu oil but after I purchased it, I started reading everywhere that it is nearly identical to coconut oil, only more expensive ????‍♀️

Thank you for the information!

Ohhhh…. Babassu is soooooo much better.  Especially if you start making facial products.  Compare the comedogenic ratings!

Quality of oils varies enormously between vendors.  The best I have gotten was from NDA… but not far behind was MYO.

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The mommy blogger sites don’t like (understand) PEG…so 165 gets kicked to the curb…even though that is what they should be using!

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abierose said:

@Graillotion what percentage should I start off at? And I have Isopropyl Myristate so would that work at least until I get the Lauryl Laurate? Thanks!!

I assume you have a formula you are working off of….otherwise… one way to see what the competition is doing is to use this website:

INCIDecoder - Decode your skincare ingredients

When you see something you like….enter it here….or an ingredient…and it will provide you with some useful info….at least on those components that are above the 1% line.

[Graillotion]

Agreed….I avoid stearic at all cost.  Thing with stearic just don’t have the texture I require.
Granted I use it in one difficult product…My mosquito lotion….otherwise I always formulae around it.

[Graillotion]

LL is a solid at room temp…but melts immediately upon skin contact…this ‘melting’ causes a ‘cool’ sensation, and very nice glide.  Because it is an ester, it has a super lite feel…and no greasy after effect.  In the lighter of my two creams… (lower oil content) I use it as 1.5%.  In a little heavier cream…I use it at 2%.   As with ALL things…you just have to experiment until it feels like you imagined it.

IPM is a nice lite emollient…but there are many lighter.  In creams…I use a cascading effect of emollients (IL +IPM+LL)…basically means…use emollients of different weights…kinda gives a depth to the emollients….hehehe…maybe not so important in deodorant.