[Graillotion]

First thing that jumps out….is 7% glycerine.
Feel your ingredients neat….you’ll answer your own questions.
Blend humectants…using some that are not sticky.
What are you using to lock in your moisture?
If you don’t have a strong barrier function….it will evaporate as fast as your ingredients evaporate.

[Graillotion]

Yes…I would also like to be a test subject for your hair regrowth cream.  That is impressive how that eyebrow grew back.  I have thinning hair, and would like to test the product for this alternative use.  You can PM me on this forum.

All though I am concerned with the skin lesions that develop within 5-10 minutes of use.  Should I be concerned?

[Graillotion]

Need to include inclusion rate to get a good answer on that.

ie: glycerol at low rates….not sticky in the end product (usually)…glycerol at higher rates….will contribute to a sticky end product.

Just feel each of your ingredients, neat…and you can answer that question your self….If it goes in sticky, and included at more than a trace level…it will begin to transfer that characteristic to the final product.

[Graillotion]

Was tocopheryl acetate recommended by the formulator….or you chose to add that?

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Is that the FULL INCI?

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ngarayeva001 said:

@Graillotion, they probably just threw some hydrogenated vegetable oil in it.

Yes….sad to see what vendors will do to the newbies! 

[Graillotion]

Sometimes it helps if you say your country.  Then others on the forum that live there can steer you to an emulsifier supplier.

Well…if you have a 50% oil phases (if I understood correctly)…you will certainly need a real emulsifier, and way more of it.

Is there anything a 50% oil phases product will do….that a 20% oil phase cream won’t do (and feel way better doing it)?

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

Clinique used to have cyclomethicone in their old repairwear night cream but the new one doesn’t have it.

Graillotion said:

Night creams are in my understanding… thicker, more dense, a richer feel.  

Depends on your market - Korean brands tend to keep it very lightweight but have to be dewy for some period of time. 

some use it

If I remember correctly, you have an in-house influencer right? She definitely have more insight than me.

Wow….some of those formulas have quite a bit, all though…I suppose that could be near the 1% line on some of those formulas.  They do not use the liberal amounts of Isoamyl laurate, isononyl isononanoate, and Coco-Caprylate/Caprate that I am using.

My latest versions have a blend of Mont 202 and L (for lightness) and Mont 68 for richness.  So I have the exact viscosity (very much towards lite, yet strangely rich) I want, and with the addition of Hydrogenated polyisobutene, certainly got the dew level at a point that will satisfy any Korean, including the in house tester.  (Everything I make…has a touch of Aristoflex, and Carbomer, …that is just a given…when I discuss emulsifiers.)

Pharma is having me push the level on the barrier, so also added some calendula wax (below 1%), and that has been a really nice addition.

[Graillotion]

Perry said:

I doubt you would see much benefit if you’re already using high end emollients.

Agreed….no benefits….just changes the sensory package.

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Pharma said:

At a such low inclusion rate, maybe the one point to consider, apart from an at best mild effect on spreading and finishing touch, is reduced soaping .

Soaping…hehehe…I have almost forgotten what that is.
I have found at 1%…the results were pretty dramatic.  But you know how I am.

[Graillotion]

As said above…lacking a true emulsifer.

What are you trying to make?

[Graillotion]

Body butter typically contains no water.
An emulsion…always contains water.
Anything that contains water must be preserved.
Butters can be added to either…all though if you get something called cherry butter….you are probably getting some yuck veggie butter with some cherry oil added….since cherry…does not make a butter.    (Better to choose an awesome real butter, and add some cherry oil to your formula.)

[Graillotion]

I use the simplest form…

  

[Graillotion]

In your heading….you mentioned condensation…. Chemical Matt had a good comment in another thread…which reminded me… You might consider adding some glycols.  That can only help….in so many ways.

I usually stir them in at the end of cool down…with fragrance and preservative….be warned…there is a brief…OH CRAP…moment when you think you’ve destroyed your emulsion….but don’t worry…it looks good again with 30-40 seconds of hand stirring.

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JonahRay said:

@Graillotion finally got my hands on glyceryl stearate citrate and looks like the problem has been solved (into the incubator it goes). I also increased 68MB to 4% and also added in some tribehenin - thank you so much for the advice!

Hope all goes well!

GSC is really nice…in that it really doesn’t change the tactile feeling that you chase with the main emulsifier.  I had tried a different anionic in my journeys, and it absolutely destroyed the feel I was chasing with the Montanov’s.

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abierose said:

Graillotion said:

Oh goodness!! Well, I’m glad I’m not the only one!  I have a bunch of fragrance oils that I will probably never use because out of all of them, I really only like 2 or 3 of them! Damn, ok, was hoping you would have a special fragrance supplier that you love and could direct me to but I guess my search will continue. One lesson I have learned is that I shouldn’t buy more than 1 or 2 small or sample sized fragrance oils from any one vendor, hehe ????

Yes…I have found the reviews posted on the vendor sites….are absolutely worthless….people will rave about things…that absolutely stink!

Hehehe….maybe as picky people we would have the same fav’s?

We should compare notes.

[Graillotion]

Hahaha…. I have 80 fragrances…from maybe 10 vendors.

There is no one company better than another as far as finding something you like…that is all just personal opinion.

I was thinking about selling them off on e-bay….in lots of 10….grab bag style…hehehe.

Ohh…and of those 80…I have one that I like, and maybe 2-3 that won’t kill me.   

And of course in this industry…there are many re-packers…selling the same thing with different names.  

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Climatechangeanxiety said:

@DAS gotcha..i’m just a hobbyist for now so I don’t have a industry-standard manufacturing process. I’ll add the preservatives after cooldown, but for the ‘heated phase’ was just wondering if adding boiling water to my surfactants will do any bad.

I guess what is confusing us is…. Will it do any good?  Other than being a waste of energy…what would the point be?  What are you trying to gain?  Some hobbyist will use glassware and a microwave to reduce energy use. 

When I have an emulsifier that needs heat…I try and use as little heat as possible to achieve the necessary temperature.  Energy is expensive in Hawaii!

I think what some of the other’s are trying to say….is process is very important.  If you don’t repeat the same exact process each time…you will ultimately create a slightly different product each time.  If you are only making for yourself…that is fine.   If you are considering selling…..not so fine.

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jemolian said:

@Graillotion i bought mine from china as per usual, but then in terms of skin feel wise, Isononyl Isononoate’s profile is very fast spreading, silky and relatively fast absorbing even up to 20%.

Just bought some Hydrogenated Polyisobutene, so hope to test it when it arrives. 

Thank you…. I went ahead and order samples from ULP… I have a repacker whom I can sometimes twist their arm into getting specialty products.

I just started with the polyisobutene last week….in a very lite lotion package…and it definately enhanced the durability of the humectants.  So plan on trying it again tomorrow with a little higher rate of hydrolyzed Jojoba esters, to make it feel like a lite weight, but moisturize like a heavy weight.  I can usually get that effect by raising the HJE’s up in that 3% range.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

 i use esters such as Isononyl Isononanoate. 
 

Just curious…the US repackers don’t seem to carry Isononyl Isononoate…so I have always had to use Isoamyl laurate (mixed in with a few other things).  I’ve always wondered what I was missing….can you or anyone compare them for me?

I’ve never requested a sample of ULP….cus I did not have a place I could ultimately buy it.

[Graillotion]

Allantoin still exceeds what can be solubilized in the water you have.  If I recall, .54% of water…not .54% of formula.

Monumental step forward from first formula.

Now just make a small batch…evaluate and correct.

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Sorry…. copy and paste was so large….it will take two:

With more than 10,000 starter formulations and 24,000 ingredients, Prospector can help you get your new product ideas to market quickly!

Using a starting formula is a great way to begin the process of making a new product. You can learn how to make things of which you are unfamiliar and also discover where formula improvements might be made. The suppliers found here on UL Prospector are a great source for some of those starting formulas. Just remember, they are a place to start, not a place to end.

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ULP has thousands of formulas.   Look through them, and find a starting formula….then follow the outline I copied and pasted from ULP:

What is a starting formula

A starting formula is basically a recipe that tells you how to make whatever type of product it refers to. It contains a list of ingredients, their proportions, the way to put them together and specifications for how it should look when you’re done. The closest thing to a formula that you may have encountered in college was in Organic Chemistry lab. These lab exercises involved following a series of experimental steps to convert some starting chemicals into a new chemical. I distinctly remember a lab synthesizing N, N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide (DEET).  Of course, cosmetic formulating is different than organic synthesis. Generally, formulators mix together chemicals and hope nothing happens.

Why would you use one?

To some, using a starting formula might seem like cheating. Theoretically, if you know all your raw materials and what they do, you should be able to come up with a basic formula by just guessing at the proportions. And some chemists do this. But the vast majority of formulators begin with a starting formula for the following reasons.

• Inherited formulas – If you’re new to a company, they’ve got formulas they’ve been making for years before you got there. Their consumers already like the product and their manufacturing department has figured out how to produce the product efficiently. Typically, new formulators are hired to tweak existing formulas, not create completely new ones.
• Formulating faster – When your company or client wants to make a product that is completely new to you, then using a starting formula will help you learn the technology and the basic range of ingredients you need to make a product work. It is much faster to start with an existing formula than to make a new one right out of your brain.
• More efficient – While you could create a formula based on a theoretical description of all the raw materials a product needs, this may require dozens of raw material samples from a variety of different suppliers. When you begin with a starting formula you drastically cut down your options making formulating more efficient.

You certainly don’t have to begin with a starting formula, but unless you have decades of experience formulating a wide range of products, using a starting formula is where most cosmetic chemists begin.

Where to find reliable starting formulas

In the old days, the places to find starting formulas was limited.  There was your company’s old notebooks, the pages of classic industry text books like Harry’s Cosmeticology, supplier’s printed formularies or in the trade journal’s monthly formulary column. Clever chemists could also get starting formulas from patents.  And for the most part, you can still use all those sources, but paper printing has given way to digital publications.

The sources mentioned thus far were relatively reliable and you could count on coming up with a decent product if you followed the published starting formula. But with publishing on the Internet being so easy there are many more sources to find starting formulas such as blogs, social media, online videos, and raw material supplier websites. Unfortunately, the quality of these newly available sources is questionable. Many recipes you find online don’t actually work.  Stick to more reliable resources published by suppliers, trade journals and qualified experts if you are trying to make a good formula.

How to use them

Wherever you find your starting formula, the next step is to use it.  Here are some tips.

• Make it just the way it is written. This means get the suggested raw materials. Use the suggested amounts. And put it together in the way described. Don’t substitute ingredients or use more or less based on your whims. You want to make the first prototype as exact as possible.

This will provide the baseline from which you can further iterate and make improvements.

• Characterize the formula – Once you have it made, you want to create as many measurements about its various characteristics as you can. Of course, check it against the starting specifications (color, pH, viscosity, etc.). But also compare it to a benchmark product you are trying to emulate. Specifically, do some in use performance testing.

This will let you know what you need to improve to make a better formula.

• Perform a knockout experiment – Many starting formulas have excess amounts or numbers of ingredients that aren’t necessary. You can perform a knockout experiment to determine which ingredients are really needed. This is done by making a series of formulas in which you leave out or “knockout” one of the ingredients and replace the missing volume with the main solvent. Once you finished, you’ll have a series of batches that show you how crucial each ingredient is form the formula.

This will let you know what ingredients have the most significant impact on the formula.

• Iterate to create a better formula – Now that you know what ingredients are important you can start experimenting. You can reduce or increase the level different ingredients. You can substitute out similar classes of ingredients for the ones listed in the formula. You can adjust levels to optimize for cost or performance. This is where the real work of the cosmetic formulator happens.

Eventually, with enough prototypes and testing, you should end up with a formula that looks a lot different from the starting formula but is superior in performance and cost.

Some final tips when working with starting formulas

• Avoid violating a formulation patent – while you can find starting formulas in patents be sure that the formula you end up with based on it doesn’t violate the patent.
• Don’t market starting formulas – Using a starting formula is a great place to begin your formulation efforts. But don’t go to market with a starting formula. You need to make sure that the formula is stable and works for your purposes. Always make some optimized changes to a starting formula.
• Supplier formulas are usually bloated – While formulas from suppliers are incredibly helpful remember that they are made to highlight the supplier’s ingredients. That typically means they have higher levels of the supplier’s materials than you actually need. This is good for raw material sales, but maybe not great for your formula needs.
• Don’t optimize too much – Finally, when you’re making a new formula focus mostly on performance. Don’t worry as much about optimizing for cost. That’s because you know in a year or so your marketing people will come to you and ask you to make the formula less expensive. This is when you optimize for cost.

[Graillotion]

Does your product contain viable preservatives?

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Yes!  I have found nothing like the Danish butters….ANYWHERE.  And yes…I love the oils I get from NDA.

MYO’s butters come from here: ICSC - Leading supplier of natural oils, butters, antioxidants & preservatives