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Ok @Pharma  and @vitalys ..so I will admit…I have stearic acid on hand.  

So without blowing up this prototype….how much of this should I add?

I typically formulate with the Montanov’s…. First Prototype was 202 and L plus some GSC.  I also texturize all formulas with Aristoflex and Carbomer.

Currently the viscosity is about right….so If I add Stearic…do I reduce a fatty alcohol…the corresponding amount?

And yes…I use Octyl Palmitate in my non facial products, as I feel among my 5 or 6 lite emollients, it offers the most skin softening.  I typically add 1% Squalane in everything I make…as it is the carrier for my vitamin mix.

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Is it legal to use the words ‘elegant’ and ‘wax’ in the same sentence?

Since I don’t formulate with petrol products… I have been using candelilla and some other tricks to create barrier.

I saw in another thread….someone mention: rice bran wax or myrica fruit wax.  Can anyone compare elegance, and slip….between these 3…and why one might offer an enhanced texture…while still providing a bump in barrier.

I tend to use wax at a rate of .5 to .75%….depending on a lot of other factors, and testing.

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RedCoast said:

Graillotion said:

RedCoast said:

P.S. I love betaine! I wish it was more common in repackers… sometimes, I don’t like having a zillion different suppliers. :p

I finally talked FSS to carry it…. They have it…. If you can …. support them/it….so it doesn’t go away.

Thank you for your input.

Yes, this is my intention! I’ll also try talking them into carrying some of the other “special” ingredients that Drunk Elephant uses… several people I know have been looking for DE dupes!

Hehehe….what ‘special’ ingredients?  I sent them some of my cream…and they were impressed…and now even reach out to me…asking what they need to carry.  As long as it is not totally synthetic….they listen well, totally struck out…when I asked for Isononyl Isononanoate.

I have Centella Asiatica extract on order per yours and Pharma’s recomendation…and he also had the brilliant idea (but aren’t they all) of adding Hawaii Noni (fermented) to the mix…. Talk about killing all the (claim) birds with one stone.

I made a very nice prototype yesterday…but forgot to add the candelilla….so guess I have tomorrows work cut out.

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Oils are so different…you have asked an impossible question.  Search their fatty acid profiles, and match that to your needs.  Oils really break down to fatty acid profiles.  Many are just high oleic..(omega 9)…and essentially interchangeable. 

Some are way more fragile than others…and will require creative formulating to keep them stable….ie: hemp and rosehip etc…

Others are super stable…like meadowfoam etc…

Others are unique in that they provide different things…ie: Black Currant = GLA’s.

Absorption rates are tied generally to their fatty acid profile….want moderate…Macadamia nut…want fast…try raspberry…etc…etc.

Skin soft….I think that would take a semester…hehehe.  But I would say…that is the barrier function doing a lot of that heavy lifting.

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RedCoast said:

P.S. I love betaine! I wish it was more common in repackers… sometimes, I don’t like having a zillion different suppliers. :p

I finally talked FSS to carry it…. They have it…. If you can …. support them/it….so it doesn’t go away.

Thank you for your input.

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NOT a fan of extracts….but if I was looking for a ‘Top 5’ list popular in Asia….what would they be?

I know a couple have been mentioned….what else?

Just thinking ‘claim’ amount.

Put a little ‘*’ next to the one’s on your list….that you think might have the remotest amount of functional value.   (Said tongue in cheek!)

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RedCoast said:

Geranium EO is rarely used by itself, or at least the predominant note… it’s often combined with other rose EOs or other citruses, mints, or woods. It’s a common “blender” EO, much like how jasmine EO is. I often see geranium + lemon EO in Korean beauty products!

Do you think you’ll add 1-5% silicones, especially cyclomethicone? You might want to try ethyl macadamiate… it would work with a “macadamia oil” theme.

Can you get jojoba esters yet? You can find jojoba esters 15, 30 and 60 in more repackers now. I was surprised how much I liked jojoba esters 60-it didn’t feel oily. The Gold Bond Ultimate Healing Hand Cream does have jojoba esters in it, and the olive oil Innisfree hand cream has it, too.

I think it’s a good idea to have the Gold Bond hand cream I just mentioned as another good reference product… it’s on the “drier” side, and it will give you more ideas how some people like their hand creams.

Are you considering adding hydroxyethyl urea? Or are you going to use glycerin or a plant-based glycol?

Uh-oh… you nail down this formulation, you’ll have customers trying to barge through your door… are you sure you’ll be ready for that?

When I smell the Geranium products around the house…I just smell the geranium….but then again…I was not looking for those other notes.  I’ll have to play with the collection….before the new group arrives from Canada!

I have a small bottle of ethyl mac…and wanted to desperately use it.  However, I typically research availability before I work with an ingredient too much….and in Hawaii…sometimes availability means….MUST be able to ship via USPS!!!  FedEx and UPS charge $54 for the first ounce!!!!  So if a vendor only uses those shippers….I can not use them as a vendor.  Noble roots was the only place I had found Ethyl Mac (a FloraTech product), and they were phasing out small pak….so I stopped making test formulas with it….but yes…I would have loved it for the theme.
Usually I use a small amount of dimethicone, half percent or less…and about 1% of cyclomethicone.  Somehow Polymethylsilsesquioxane always wanders into my creams as well.  This of course is supplemented with about 10% blend of my super emollients….in the back of my mind… I will pair EHP with IL for an hand cream….as I feel like EHP has some softening aspects.  Typically I would start this type formula with 60% IL and 40% EHP as a ratio…and finish it with lauryl laurate.
As far as Jojoba esters…you have heard me mentions FloraTech…so yes…I use lots of K-20W….I call it my secret weapon….it is in everything I make.  I have not tried their other J. esters (other than the mac)…was wondering if they would really add anything since I was already using large amounts of K-20W?  It also gives me some wash-off protection.
My humectant protocol is pretty set…a little glycerin…natural betaine, propanediol + a glycol brew oriented more towards hurdles.  I really like the feel that pentylene G gives….it really accentuates the fast break ‘whoosh’ I love to put into my products.

[Graillotion]

Thank you @RedCoast 
I think I can hit the first 3 bullets…with just my standard protocols…hehehe…#2 will be a bit of a stretch…but I have raspberry seed oil in my arsenal
Yeah….weather is just like the Midwest….oddly I grew up in Korea…then moved to Kansas….both on the 38th parallel.
My Korean wife has many premium geranium scented products….which is not really a favorite of mine…tolerable…yes….awesome….hmmmn.

In my lotion…I use both Kukui and especially Mac nut.  Mac Nut is my lead oil in lotions (I get an amazing version of it from FloraTech.)  I love what that lotion does for my hands….but it does take a couple of minutes to fully absorb…so I think I will have to reduce it and any other Omega 9’s to make this a quick absorber like my face creams.  Maybe just claim levels.

I absolutely just love what the Danish refined Illipe butter does with hands.  Never felt anything like it….so I know that will be in there.

I also keep tamanu up my sleeve…but only use that in medicinal formulas.

So typically my go to oils are rosehip, raspberry, babassu, meadowfoam and black currant (for the GLA’s)….and in this case…I think camellia and daikon will probably be a plus.

As far as the Korean Market….I have not chased that….it chases me!  Something about the wife being a world famous Korean artist…I think.   We have sent a few samples to her friends, which of course are influencers….and the rest is history.  I have been very reluctant to enter that arena…but they are incredibly persistent. 

The funny thing is…..those creams resulted from her buying $250-350 creams….and me looking at the labels…and feeling the textures….and saying…. I can do better than this.   So I have used Guerlain and La Mer as my benchmarks from the beginning.  Like I said….I did not use these products…so I just thought those were good starting points.   

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RedCoast said:

 Liquid crystal or polymeric emulsions would work. Having carbomer (carbopol 940) or xanthan gum in the formulation helps a lot, too.

@Graillotion have you done the “car test” yet? AKA, imitating if a customer accidentally left it in their car on a warm, sunny spring day? It would be a good idea if you made balms or something they’d bring to fitness clubs.

Yes… I live in warm Hawaii…and a year ago tossed a bottle of lotion in the car…where it remains to this day.  Since it is 165 + GSC based….it passed with flying colors.  The face creams….I have just done the window to freezer to window to freezer test.  So far they have performed as hoped.  The face cream is Mont 202 + GSC+Aristoflex+Carbomer….so pretty tough as well.
I have been working on abierose to add some of those finer points to her product.

BTW…since fatty alcohols were a topic of discussion….one consideration is…. they all have slightly different melting points…so if you want a product that will perform at higher temps…that should be factored into your selection process.

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Sometime incompatibilities take weeks if not months to show themselves.  Since I have started…I take a small sample of every formula I produce (every experiment, every batch), and place it in a small clear jar/bottle, with a little extra head space (just to make things worse), in a sunny window….and label it.  I call it my torture test…everything you don’t want for your cosmetic creation.

What it does do…is speed up the process of oxidation, incompatible ingredients and stress, revealing issues far quicker.  Numerous times this very simply protocol has saved me from blunders, or has allowed me to make corrections before something got too far along.  (If you are near completion of a formula….give it a couple rounds in the freezer, then back to the window…etc…etc.)

When I started… I got samples of just about every know ‘natural’ emulsifier I could get my hands on….and almost none of them passed this test + time, and why my arsenal of emulsifiers is pretty small.

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The polymerics…will enhance the texture….those are things like Aristoflex AVC, Sepinov EMT 10…etc.

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RedCoast said:

 try dicaprylyl ether, dicaprylyl carbonate, or neopentyl glycol diheptanoate. They’re very light and silky! 

Are these available from repackers in the US…I do not recall seeing them?

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abierose said:

Is Hemisqualane considered a super lightweight emollient..? Or are you referring more to CCT and Alkyl Benzoate?

Yes… C12-15 alkyl benzoate is one of the ones I keep on hand..  Some of the others are IPM (watch the comedogenic rating), Coco-Caprylate/Caprate, Isoamyl laurate (my personal favorite), Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate with Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and Ethylhexyl palmitate (Octyl Palmitate) (hand and body on the last one).

Sometimes one is forced to select your lite emollients…based on availability.

And I have found that cyclomethicone puts a nice finishing touch on things.

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abierose said:

I too have wanted to mix certain ingredient types like fatty alcohols…but in the past I have gotten feedback from others on the forum that I don’t need more than one of each ingredient…so I’ll start mixing ingredients like fatty alcohols…funny because I was just researching some others as I am getting a bit tired of the 3 common ones that are used all the time ???? 

Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater…   There is a reason why Cetyl alcohol is so prevalent. 

As you are aware …. blending is more common place than you can imagine…as some like the aforementioned cetearyl are already a blend of cetyl and stearyl alcohols.  Also many emulsifiers contain a fatty alcohol as a component.

Some formulators will select a fatty alcohol that they feel best strengthens their emulsion.  I prefer to strengthen my emulsion other ways, and let the fatty alcohol selection be more based to the sensory experience it brings.

And yes….simplicity is a virtue, but it can also be a function of industry, which will compromise a texture (or tiny nuances they believe the consumer cannot detect) for ease of production, and lower overhead.

BTW: Cetyl esters does not thicken as efficiently as some of the others, so generally have to increase the amount used a little.

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Well…I pretty much have unlimited time and budget when I formulate, ….but here are my take-aways I have come away with.  Every ingredient counts.  Try as many ingredients in each segment as possible…each will have its own nuance.  Look at the best formulas in the segment…and deduce what they did, and why each component was included, and what it did for the formula.  The most difficult aspect is the final texture.  In the last cream I made….it took 41 generations…I had everything nailed by version 3….except texture, that took the other 38 generations.

1) Every ingredient counts….. Lets look at something like fatty alcohol….there are lots of choices…the only way you will know which one to choose…is make your formula with each (common) fatty alcohol, that being the only ingredient changed…then evaluate the formula.  The texture each will provide will be unique, and this is where it gets interesting…what feels good to one person, might not feel good to the next.  So formulators on this site can not tell you which one feels best….only which one feels best to them!  So me as an example… I like Cetyl esters best, cetyl alcohol 2nd best, and also use MM.  So that is only what feels best to ME…. not what will make your product feel the best to you.  I also tend to use ingredients at low level…as I think too much of anything…lends too much of its personality to the final product….as an example….if I have something that needs a lot of fatty alcohol to thicken…rather than go 3 or 4% of one…I will almost always blend two…to get the desired thickness….no science here….just preference.

As far as wow factor….in my opinion… you are lacking the super duper lite weight emollients…. I think you have read on this forum…what people are using in that regard….the premium products…are using lots of that….like in the 10% range.  I of course use a blend…again to keep things from getting monolithic, or as you may have read….a cascading emolliency.  I guess the simplest example of lite weight emollients would be….shake them….they should feel thinner than water.  This again is an area….where no one can tell you what feels best…as that again will be personal preference.  I keep about 6 of these on hand….and all have their own nuances….things like skin softening…shine…speed of absorption…etc..  So you use them where they fit…example…night cream….speed of absorption, you might not want lightening fast…shine….more is ok….etc.  I also evaluate comedogenic ratings on those…one of my fav’s I do not use in face creams….but pile it on….for body and hand.

Finally….wow factor…. I found with the liquid ingredients…I could not quite get there.  Do not underestimate the power of the polymeric emulsifiers, and carbomer.  There is immense differences in one’s that people seem to toss around as….interchangeable.  Trust me…. NOoooooooooooo.

Look at specialty ingredients…like Polymethylsilsesquioxane…. read everything you can on that one, or similar products.

But my final take away will always be….texture will always be personal opinion… I send samples to people around the globe on this forum….and I just giggle…at how different each person’s perception is.  What I might consider near failure…they might say is one of the best things they have ever felt.

Last but not least….create more versions of your product than you ever imagined….take notes…learn…and improve.  Technique …. technique…technique… get the right equipment…and follow the mfg (not reseller) instructions.

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RedCoast .

I also enjoy pear, but 99.9% of the pear FOs are too perfumey! I’d like to see a close replication of a ripe bosc pear… seriously, have you smelled a fresh sliced one? I couldn’t believe how delicious and complex it was!

Do tell….about this .1% pear FO….  

(you found it…or are still searching?)

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@Perry, is there any comedogenic scores still done on rabbits?  (Not that I would consider that cruelty…. letting kids drink soda is for more cruel!)

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RedCoast said:

Graillotion said:

So ….anyone can chime in.  A natural fragrance for a night cream????

Something too sweet or too refreshing does not set the table well for sleep.  I have never been a huge fan of lavender… Can a relaxing scent be created with the components being discussed?  Would love to hear thoughts on this.  Something that is not too floral…with a twist of unisex, and a splash of universality….hehehehe.

How about trying it with clary sage? It has that “calming” camphoraceous note like lavender, but it’s not as intense and it’s definitely fresher/greener. It can have a topnote that can smell sharp to some people. Some people like that sharpness, but not everyone… I think it’s more calming for gardeners and people who love the outdoors.

Or maybe even blue chamomile. That one is surprisingly good and is on the “milder” side. It has a slight green apple note to me.

If you’re looking for universiality… I think ylang ylang and bergamot would be it. Clary sage can work, too, if you can minimize the potential sharpness.

Thank you.

I will order the berg and YY 3 today (and pepper).

Hey….I have a propensity towards the fir/juniper/piney scents….any thoughts about adding some of these…and not pushing away one of the sexes?  And what have you found to be the best smelling in that group?  I use NDA for all my EO purchases.  And when considering these scents…I don’t mean with the aforementioned EO’s…but possibly starting with a clean slate.  I have a commercial fragrance…that was my #1 seller (lotion) pre-Covid, in the lsland giftshops….it was balsam fir with a hint citrus.  Those sales were primarily to Japanese and Korean clients.

Pine is popular in Korea, so in that market, I think it would be well accepted (as part of a scent package).

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So ….anyone can chime in.  A natural fragrance for a night cream????

Something too sweet or too refreshing does not set the table well for sleep.  I have never been a huge fan of lavender… Can a relaxing scent be created with the components being discussed?  Would love to hear thoughts on this.  Something that is not too floral…with a twist of unisex, and a splash of universality….hehehehe.

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RedCoast said:

@abierose

Black pepper and clove essential oils are my favorite! I can’t turn down a good orange and clove fragrance, It’s difficult to pick a fixative that doesn’t overwhelm the peppery notes.

Benzoin is a good fixative in general, but it can be too sweet and vanilla-y. Ylang Ylang III is excellent, but it can be on the pricey side. I haven’t tried the other distillations of Ylang Ylang yet, but I heard they can make interesting compositions.

I’m currently experimenting with juniper with pepper, and I like the results so far…

I have about killed myself trying to make an EO combination I love.  I have created tons of tolerable ones….but tolerable is always unacceptable to me.  Funny thing is….my crown jewel is a natural mosquito lotion.  It is a 13 EO blend that is just jammed full of Vanillin.  Of course EO’s have an effective life of 17-18 minutes for repelling mosquitos….so fixatives are the quintessential component.  I have found the typical fragrance fixatives all but worthless for fixing EO’s… So I have come up with a crazy cocktail of fixers….that ultimately give me several hours of protection….and as mentioned before…with the crazy load of vanillin in there….smelling like sugar cookies.   Can’t give away all my secrets….but some places to look would be….triethyl citrate…. maybe use C12 C15 alkyl benzoate as your emollient of choice….and give a look at Floratech’s hydrolyzed jojoba esters as possible helps.  My system is far more elaborate than that…but those are the cards I am willing to show.

My latest venture is a natural pain cream… I work with the finest mind in this field, and have ended up with something that has a scent mix (some of which is used to create a bit of a placebo effect) with wintergreen, mint, and clove…surprisingly not too bad.  One of the key scented constituents is paeonol, which has an uncanny ability to dominate the overall scent of the formula, even though by itself, you hardly notice the smell, but even including it at less than 1% in formula….wants to dominate with it’s minty smell.

The aforementioned products were produced only with function in mind, and the scent was a result of combining the functionals.  As far as scenting something like a facial moisturizer…I have not found the magic bullet yet, so I ended up using rose absolute with frankincense oleoresin, and phenethyl alcohol.  Quite tolerable to the masses, even those that dislike artificial rose scent.  Somehow….the frankincense adds just enough of a spice…to confuse, and lull the senses. BTW…I have found frankincense EO…to have No value at all, for any purpose, functional or scenting.  The mentor makes me produce a growing number of the ingredients I use.

I have not yet given up (on creating a dreamy EO fragrance)….I rarely give up…but sometimes take sabbaticals.  I have all the mentioned EO’s…with the exception of pepper…and you have me intrigued…and will be ordering some soon!  I have also been working at creating ginger extract with the help of my mentor, as part of the multi pronged pain cream,…and will be intrigued on experimenting with that….as one of my favorite commercial fragrance oils….uses ginger as part of the scent profile.

I have always been intrigued with the citrus EO’s…and now that I am finally working on a NIGHT cream… might have an opportunity to include them in the scent profile.  Still trying to get the barrier function where my Swiss mastermind thinks it should be.  

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Question is a little vague…. but generally I would answer that question by saying….1) use enough emulsifier, and 2) Use a co-emulsifier.

If you are looking for a good place to start, look for an emulsifier with this INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate

It is often referred to by a designation/name that includes ‘165’.  As close to bulletproof as you’ll find …. without us knowing much more about the formula.

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You haven’t really given enough information for people to evaluate.

Did you use a preservative?

What are the ingredients.  If there is a reaction occurring between ingredients, we can only help if we know what might be in there.

Were there air bubbles when you filled…and they just migrated to the surface?

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Abdullah 
 

It feels good on skin and make the skin a bit warm if used in lotion. Especially in cold weather. I was using it at %2.

Are you buying this in the US?  If so …. where?

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion:

You are making this waaaay too complicated.  If you prepeare your own extract, you should add a preservative to it if you are not going to use all of it at one time, but store some for future use.
.

So, to cut to the chase:  You should preserve your self-made extract and then separately preserve your entire formula.  It is no more complicated than that.  Preservation affects the entire formula, not individual ingredients within the formula independent of the other ingredients.

Yes…I over think every aspect of my cosmetic endeavors….which probably isn’t a bad thing as far as the customer is concerned.  

Because I use a less than optimal preservation system…. (5 step hurdle + E9010), I am always looking to make sure when I add bug food, I minimize it’s impact, in anyway possible

I was trying to see if I could introduce bug food in a manner that did not increase the stress on an already less than premium preservation system.  Not saying it doesn’t work currently…it does… Just I never want to stretch it to the max…I prefer to be over protected…not…..Just protected.

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domicanica said:

Thanks for your input! How much do I add to formulas and where in the process do I add it in a body lotion and body wash?

Those are the typical use rates…I suppose I would select the rate based on the quality of water I was starting with.