[Graillotion]

Yeah…I have HEC in my basket….actually….Hydroxypropylcellulose (HPC), as the seller’s description made it sound like it would be easier to work with (less clumping).  Any thoughts on the difference there @jemolian ?

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jemolian said:

Normally the anionic ingredients. Some polymers / gelling agents are anionic, which i’d assume the polymer in Sepigel 305 to be. 

What gelling agents are known to be compatible with cationics?

Zen?

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Abdullah said:

Don’t use chelating agents like EDTA or sodium phytate and citric acid. Adjust the pH with lactic acid. Use caprylhydroxamic acid if you need a chelating agent in the Product. 

Thank you, per @Pharma recommendation….I have been lowering pH with lactic acid for quite a while now.

So I have all the above chelators….am I understanding correctly, for a (cationic) formula that will have a pH in the mid 4’s….the GLDA is the best choice?  Just use it at say .1%, and not .2%?  I do not have the capryhydroxamic acid.

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The long and the short on EO’s….you probably can’t put enough of them in there, while keeping the product skin safe….to do much good.  All the heavy lifting in my pain cream is done through more traditional ingredients.

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Well…I am developing a product (for pain) that has 15 modes of action, 6 of which are essential oils.  So far…my testers have disrupted my life (retirement), willing to crawl across broken glass….begging for more of the product…hehehe…they were only supposed to test it…not become addicted.

I have a loved one that suffers a chronic pain, and I felt there was no need for this, so have developed a product (in conjunction with the most brilliant mind on this forum), with never really a dream of selling it.  It has only been the response of the testers…that is making me second guess if I should market it.

In my product and opinion, the essential oils are in the product, primarily to enhance the placebo effect, and create the aura of good medicine.  A number of other ingredients are proven performers, but do not create the placebo effect I need for maximum product acceptance.  So long and the short…I think SOME EO’s can have some effect….ie: clove EO can help with pain… Wintergreen puts the mind in the mode of….this is gonna work!  :disappointed:  Some I simply use as a source of a component I am looking for…like camphor.

When developing something that is supposed to address something the likes of pain, NEVER underestimate the value of the placebo effect… It is powerful medicine!

But once you get into things like Bird’s Nest Extract….I think I need some special boots… hehehe.

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I can not begin to help….

But I am curious….directions say… Shake well before using…. Do you know what happens when you shake well….Does everything temporarily whiten/emulsify for a moment….like a salad dressing that has been shaken?  Or do they stay separate?  I am assuming…..they combine for a moment?

Seems like over time….the ratios change, unless one is a very savant shaker. 

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RedCoast said:

As a frequent hand cream user, I’ve never had a hand cream that didn’t leave fingerprints or smudging behind in some way, shape, or form. I have tried the L’Occtane shea one, and it was okay… I don’t think it deserves all the hype, though.

Some emollients are matte, which can create the illusion that the lotion didn’t leave fingerprints behind. Also, if you handle lots of shiny but light-colored surfaces, like polished light-colored wood, you’ll need to inspect closely whether you left prints behind.

I think getting some less glossy, faster-absorbing emollients will fix many of your problems.

Actually….removing the Softisan, lowering the butters 1% and changing the polymeric grouping made a significant step in the right direction.

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Wow….Just wow…that 1% swap-out was dramatic.  (sepi-305 for Aristoflex and carbomer)

I will evaluate for the next couple of days.

I did a couple other tweaks while I was at it.  Took the Softisan out…as ‘neat’ is seemed to be a little guilty.  I also added back the .5% stearic acid…which for some strange reason…seems to enhance the package.

I am only using 1% cyclomethicone….will increasing this help to minimize ‘finger printing’?

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MarkBroussard said:

Yes, correct.  Cetearyl Alcohol + 165 + Sepigel 305 would be the correct combination

You have said cetearyl twice…. Is there something there?  Can I use cetyl esters and behenyl?

Got a batch with some Sepi 305 in stir-down now…  

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MarkBroussard said:

No, not just Sepigel as the exclusive emulsifier … Use the same combination as L’Occitaine …. Glyceryl Stearate SE (and) PEG100 Stearate + Cetearyl Alcohol + Sepigel 305.  Unless you have an issue using PEG100 Stearate.

No…after a brief straying away….I am back to using 165 + a Montanov + Aristoflex and carbomer.

I suppose the sepigel would replace the last two?  (Which were there for textural purposes.)

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Perry said:

Can you explain what you mean by fingerprinting?  Are you referring to leaving oily prints on whatever surface you touch (e.g. phone screen)?

Yes.  Leaving very definitive prints…when touching any type of glass surface….car steering wheel….etc.

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion:

Try making one version with Sepigel and a second version without … see if there is any difference.

Just including Sepigel….or using Sepigel as the exclusive emulsifier?

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When I first started out…I purchased Sepigel 305…. made a few less than stellar experiments….and never touched it again.

Am I missing out?

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MarkBroussard said:

I think they probably added in a bit of Antifingerprintate, but just did not put it on the label … or, their marketing department just made it up.

Ahh…I was wondering what that secret ingredient was called. 

I’ll search unicornexpress right away! I think it ships from Narnia or Absurdistan!

BTW…I meant…ingredients they did not use, that would aid in the endeavor.

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ngarayeva001 said:

Graillotion said:

Emulsify your product with a whisk.  

Well if your product is relying  on sepigel 305 as the only emulsifier you can even emulsify it with a fork ????

The whisk people…have more than likely never heard of Sepi 305.  

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jemolian said:

Speaking about cooking, this kills me

Comments from the natural FB groups always does, so…

All that is missing is…..Bake at 350 for 25 minutes!

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Emulsify your product with a whisk.  :#

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Pattsi said:

Sepimat series would have a superior feeling but if you only want to kill gloss and talc isn’t ideal name on the label, modified starch powder would be more cost effective in hand cream. 

@Graillotion Dimethicone Crosspolymer is really good, you have to try it maybe you might have your new aha.

I am starting to wonder…if I have not naturally backed into this texture…by making my own cocktail of:
Dimethicone, cyclomethicone, Polymethylsilsesquioxane, arrowroot, Aristoflex and Carbomer?     I call that my standard protocol for texturing. 

Feedback on textures are generally positive.

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Paprik said:

Not sure if this is gonna help, but I’m using Montanov 202 and it provides matte finish. Love this, coz of my combination skin. 

Other than that, I’m thinking about adding some type of powder to reduce the glossiness? 

[Looking forward to see other’s suggestions on this one ]

I use Mont 202 in one of my finalized products…and I like the feel it gives.  I am easily able to overwhelm its mattifying abilities…hehehe.

In the project I am working on…right now I am inclined to use Montanov L (with 165), but I am guessing Mont L…is not the culprit.  Waiting on USPS to deliver some samples of emulsifier combinations around (for feedback), and then will finalize the emulsifier.

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I see this quote on the KSG-016F:

Due to its 3-dimentional crosslinked structure, it is able to diffuse light and give a soft focus effect, to conceal skin imperfections providing a natural look.

Also on the INCI, I see Dimethicone….which I use, I also use a polymeric and carbomer in everthing….and I use Polymethylsilsesquioxane, which is supposed to have the ‘blurring’ effect.

Maybe I have just overwhelmed these minimizers?

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Pharma said:

Correct, replace fatty alcohols and/or monoglycerides and/or cetyl esters 1:1 with fatty acids if it’s for the same purpose (see also last phrase in this post). Like you’re used from substituting cetyl alcohol with a cetyl esters, the outcome is similar but still noticeably different and you’ll have to adjust. The 1:1 switch is a good starting point, not necessarily the final solution. Question is, do you replace all fatty alcohol or just part of it? The full replacement will probably give you the best idea on what exactly stearic acid does and feels like. If fear you’re going to hate it :smiley: .

If you want a softer version, use oleic acid or glyceryl monooleate instead or as a mix with stearic acid (I think such a mix feels nice and can be a useful replacement but is it really worth using that instead of staying with a good ol’ fatty alcohol?). Reason I mention it, such an ingredient (or blend) might be more in line with octyl palmitate, isoamyl laurate, and the feel of your entire product line. Stearic acid feels ‘hard’, ‘rough’, and ‘dry’ whilst oleic acid and glyceryl oleate feel ‘soft’, ‘smooth’ but also ‘oily’ (they’re on the other side of fatty alcohols, so to speak). They don’t have the vanishing effect of stearic acid but penetrate skin extremely well and deep (but rather slowly).

Ok….went to the bench…and sure enough…some Glyceryl Oleate sitting there….from a failed foray into body wash.   So tried it neat…and it has some interesting, albeit shiny aspects.  Yes it softens hands wonderfully…given enough time.  So granted I was applying it 100% neat… how would you take this into formulation??? Would .5% be too little?  2% too much?  I would appreciate some guidance.  I also decided to run it through incidecoder…and found VERY FEW hand creams using this ‘secret’ ingredient???  

So are you saying use this in lieu of stearic….or both?

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I think what he is saying….for many reasons we generally select a goal for the pH of a product.  So the only way to hit your goal…is to test pH (and then adjust).  A pH meter in the US can generally be purchased for around $20.

If you are the only one to use your products…probably OK…but if you allow others to use….you should know what you are handing out.

You did not list all your other ingredients….and some of them could possibly be pH sensitive as well.  (Or is this a purchased commercial cream…and you are just tossing in some ‘add-ins’?

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helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

As a benchmark for feel, try Elemis Skin Nourishing Body Cream https://uk.elemis.com/skin-nourishing-body-cream.html. It feels incredible going on. It glides evanescently over the skin as if you’re stroking a bit of silk fabric over the skin, then has a final perceptible squish/melt into the skin with literally zero drag at any point. Then the skin is left with a slightly powdery, silky and light protective feel. I don’t like any other Elemis body products… unlike their face creams, I think they all feel quite cheap and are not very moisturising. But this one uses the emulsifier, Biophilic H, which I think is what gives it that soft feel, along with the pentaerythrityl distearate (Cutina PES) wax. I’ve used Biophilic H before but I couldn’t get it to work for me.. the process is too long winded (there’s an extra step to hydrate the hydrogenated lecithin) and it’s very expensive as well. It does have a nice feel though.. it also contains palmitic acid as an ingredient which I always wondered was the secret to the feel. Also, I’ve noticed Elemis use Dicaprylyl Carbonate and Isononyl Isononanoate in all their face and body creams. As someone else already mentioned somewhere, Dicaprylyl Carbonate is worth getting hold of. It is cushioned, and leaves a slightly powdery but not “dry dry” finish, and I personally find it more moisturising than other light esters.

I was unable to find Dicaprylyl Carbonate / Cetiol CC at the re-packer level in the US.

I did make the final test combination with the three Montanov’s with 165…this time L…and after 20+ minutes…certainly had an enhanced feel over 202 and 68.  Samples went out to 4 testers…so we’ll see if they concur. 

Now I will play with butters and candelilla levels.

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Pattsi said:

Sorry for my curiosity and stupidity.

Why 165>Montanovs? What’s the advantage of this combo? Will this form a lamellar network?

Would this combo give a richer feel than 165 + linear emulsifier combo? 

Well….Richer is rarely what I chase….(except on the night cream I am working on).  So what I chase is two-fold….first impression texture…and long term moisturization….aka … lamellar network among other aspects.  (Not saying my products lack richness…that just comes to the party other ways…and do not rely entirely on the emulsifier.)

So for me….first impression texture amongst the products (emulsifiers) I have worked with…and of course this is just personal opinion….is most easily acquired with Mont. 202.  So you can tell my personal opinion leans towards lightness over richness.  I have naturally oily skin on my face.

So for me….the Montanov’s are not the easiest to formulate with.  Adding 165 makes everything effortless…so my objective is to maintain most of the characteristics I have grown fond of from the Montanovs…yet have the security that the 165 offers.

And yes…when I chase richness…I switch from M 202 to M 68.

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helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

Thank you for taking the time to describe illipe butter for me. I bought some to try (just from a quick and easy source, not ICSC) and I see what you mean about the deep softening. For me, it feels very “complete” on the skin compared to other butters. Most butters (and many veg oils too) leave my skin feeling like there is something not quite right… like it is oily but a bit depleted. But illipe seems to be more “rounded”, adding something substantive (but not too waxy) into the skin to keep it supple and protected (like a leather protectant). I can see how it would be nice in a hand cream.

Just curious….. I want to pair the Illipe…with another butter in this hand cream.  What in your opinion (and anyone else that wants to chime in)… would be a good pairing….at first I was thinking cocoa…but after doing some neat testing yesterday….figured they are too similar.

Kokum…comes to mind…just for the higher melting point…for a product (small hand cream for purse)…  that won’t be just sitting on the bathroom counter.  (Also seems to be a little bit the rage now.)

Cupuacu… also comes to mind…