[Graillotion]

BTW….if you must formulate with aloe….MAKE your OWN!

https://www.makeyourown.buzz/aloe-vera-leaf-powder-100x/

Aloe brings numerous problems to formulating….find another claim ingredient.

[Graillotion]

Cinema said:

ngarayeva001 said:

As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?

I am using Purador’s organic
aloe gel- I did not see anything bad in the ingredients- is there usually something bad in these?

Ahh….starting to give us facts we can use ….
If it is the one I found on the net….it is loaded with crap…including cationic ingredients…which would cause some incompatabilities.

Make the formula without the Aloe gel…and I think all problems will …. POOF!

[Graillotion]

Don’t overlook M 202.  I make a face cream with it….Heaven in a jar.
I think LC has if for a lot less.

But I think easier to make thinner products with L….as it does not thicken as well as 202.

[Graillotion]

Cinema said:

Got it thanks, will do. What is CSC btw as you mentioned in the previous comment

GSC is this:

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

It is an anionic emulsifier that really helps the Montanov’s.  Do not believe the mfg claims about being stable on their own….they all say that…and usually this is not a reality.  (As I can attest.)

[Graillotion]

Regarding limits on EO’s….

Maybe take a look at this:

https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/introduction#.WVKbToqQymU

Some EO’s are NOT well tolerated on skin.

[Graillotion]

Usually….too much viscosity means….too much emulsifier / thickeners.  In your case….probably too much emulsifier.

Have you looked at Montanov L or 202?  (I think meets the natural standard you are looking for.  Should be co-emulsified with GSC.)

[Graillotion]

As mentioned above….please describe the equipment used to make the emulsion.

Are you set on the above listed emulsifier?  There are some very proven ones available to you.  The one pasted below….is essentially bullet proof, and Widely used:

CreamMaker® BLEND-EMF-EMBL-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

And yes…the EO’s will scent the product at .5%, unless you were trying to make a mosquito repellent.

[Graillotion]

Well got around to making the hand cream yesterday with a pre-made HPC solution (fully hydrated).  Sadly after adding all water phase ingredients…I had something similar to egg-drop soup

So….since SepiGel 305 is working…I think I will just stick with it.  Thank you all for your input.

[Graillotion]

Thank you…I followed step 6…and seemed to get a product that did not have the floating layer for several hours.

So I produced my HPC slurry in advance….and it cooled to room temp… I will then use it as my water in the water phase…which means it will be heated a second time.  I assume there is no issue with this?

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution? 
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution? 

The .1% GLDA goes into the beaker first….then all the water goes in second….and so on and so forth.  So all the water and the GLDA are in the beaker by themselves for a short amount of time…I guess I would consider that a solution.

……….Oh maybe I misunderstood your question…I use the liquid form, which is 50% active ingredient….so I guess in reality…I am using .05%.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

@Pharma can I ask for achieving what effect did you suggest silicone elastomer instead of HPC? 

He did not suggest the silicone elastomer over HPC, it was what I had on hand.  He simply said….it should work.

I will get HPC within a week, and will make the same formula with it.  If texturally their is no difference… I would suspect the HPC version would ultimately be more stable…a year from now.

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

@graillotion:

It’s a chelating agent … the chirality of the source molecule is of no consequence since it is not involved in a biological process where a specific enantiomer can be metabolized and another cannot.  For a chelating agent, it’s a distinction without a difference … it will bind heavy metals.

But does that difference….have any significance with how it will perform with a cationic emulsifier?  That was my area of concern.

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

An issue with re-packers is that sometimes the create their own names … hence TSGD is the MakingCosmetics name for GLDA … yes, both synonyms … best to just search by INCI.  The product is universally referred to as GLDA by every other supplier that I know.

Both are using the INCI: Tetrasodium glutamate diacetate

Which is not overly helpful!

[Graillotion]

Just an update for those playing along at home:

Next version….worked like a charm.  (Working with VariSoft EQ 65 at 2% + 165 at 3%.)

Big differences were almost doubling the fatty alcohols (50/50 Cetyl and Behenyl blend), went from 2% to almost 4%.  Reducing GLDA to .1%….and I think the kicker was….adding the Sepigel 305 post emulsion…and after the emulsion dropped below 60C.

Hey what would we do without the genius of Pharma on this forum???    I truly appreciate you!

[Graillotion]

Ok…the fog might be starting to clear….GLDA is simply the ‘L’ form of TSGD!?

So essential wholesale does not state that their TSGD is the ‘L’ form.  However…I got my TSGD from Making cosmetics…and they DO state.. “High purity, versatile and readily biodegradable chelating agent based upon L-glutamic acid“

So I believe I have GLDA in hand already.  (But they also called it TSGD.)

Please correct me if I am wrong.

*** And more than likely they got it from the same place….one just used better descriptors than the other. 

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

Yes, you can get it from http://www.essentialwholesale.com

I checked there before I posted…..didn’t find it.
I checked there after you posted… didn’t find it.

Maybe I don’t have the competence to maneuver their site?

Or do they have some code name for it?

Is GLDA and TSGD (Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate)….synonyms?

[Graillotion]

So other than HPC….considering I am looking more or less for a texturizer…how would you compare HPC and Siligel (INCI: Xanthan Gum, Lecithin, Sclerotium Gum, Pullulan)?  @jemolian

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

@Graillotion i’ve not tried HPC before, though do take a look at the viscosity that it can have because they might not reach what you might need unless you use a higher percentage. If comparing the specs on lotioncrafter, the viscosity at 1% for HPC vs HEC, HEC would be higher, 1500 - 3000 cps vs 3400-5000 cps. 

I am shooting for texture…not thickness….I can make viscosity elsewhere.

I like my products to have a gel hiding in the cream!  

Thank You….I did not notice that…(maybe cuz I was not thinking about it as a viscosity agent).  And now that you mention it….I already have plenty of viscosity…so maybe the HPC will be better for me!!!

[Graillotion]

Yeah…I have HEC in my basket….actually….Hydroxypropylcellulose (HPC), as the seller’s description made it sound like it would be easier to work with (less clumping).  Any thoughts on the difference there @jemolian ?

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

Normally the anionic ingredients. Some polymers / gelling agents are anionic, which i’d assume the polymer in Sepigel 305 to be. 

What gelling agents are known to be compatible with cationics?

Zen?

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

Don’t use chelating agents like EDTA or sodium phytate and citric acid. Adjust the pH with lactic acid. Use caprylhydroxamic acid if you need a chelating agent in the Product. 

Thank you, per @Pharma recommendation….I have been lowering pH with lactic acid for quite a while now.

So I have all the above chelators….am I understanding correctly, for a (cationic) formula that will have a pH in the mid 4’s….the GLDA is the best choice?  Just use it at say .1%, and not .2%?  I do not have the capryhydroxamic acid.

[Graillotion]

The long and the short on EO’s….you probably can’t put enough of them in there, while keeping the product skin safe….to do much good.  All the heavy lifting in my pain cream is done through more traditional ingredients.

[Graillotion]

Well…I am developing a product (for pain) that has 15 modes of action, 6 of which are essential oils.  So far…my testers have disrupted my life (retirement), willing to crawl across broken glass….begging for more of the product…hehehe…they were only supposed to test it…not become addicted.

I have a loved one that suffers a chronic pain, and I felt there was no need for this, so have developed a product (in conjunction with the most brilliant mind on this forum), with never really a dream of selling it.  It has only been the response of the testers…that is making me second guess if I should market it.

In my product and opinion, the essential oils are in the product, primarily to enhance the placebo effect, and create the aura of good medicine.  A number of other ingredients are proven performers, but do not create the placebo effect I need for maximum product acceptance.  So long and the short…I think SOME EO’s can have some effect….ie: clove EO can help with pain… Wintergreen puts the mind in the mode of….this is gonna work!  :disappointed:  Some I simply use as a source of a component I am looking for…like camphor.

When developing something that is supposed to address something the likes of pain, NEVER underestimate the value of the placebo effect… It is powerful medicine!

But once you get into things like Bird’s Nest Extract….I think I need some special boots… hehehe.

[Graillotion]

I can not begin to help….

But I am curious….directions say… Shake well before using…. Do you know what happens when you shake well….Does everything temporarily whiten/emulsify for a moment….like a salad dressing that has been shaken?  Or do they stay separate?  I am assuming…..they combine for a moment?

Seems like over time….the ratios change, unless one is a very savant shaker. 

[Graillotion]

RedCoast said:

As a frequent hand cream user, I’ve never had a hand cream that didn’t leave fingerprints or smudging behind in some way, shape, or form. I have tried the L’Occtane shea one, and it was okay… I don’t think it deserves all the hype, though.

Some emollients are matte, which can create the illusion that the lotion didn’t leave fingerprints behind. Also, if you handle lots of shiny but light-colored surfaces, like polished light-colored wood, you’ll need to inspect closely whether you left prints behind.

I think getting some less glossy, faster-absorbing emollients will fix many of your problems.

Actually….removing the Softisan, lowering the butters 1% and changing the polymeric grouping made a significant step in the right direction.