[Graillotion]

I’m sure you know….but Zen below .5% is a wonderful thing, and above that…kinda becomes giggly and gross.  

[Graillotion]

Choose the one you like the ‘feel’ the best….and simply increase it until you get the viscosity that you desire. 

[Graillotion]

Just get this and be done with it!  You’ll make amazing products:

Dynamic MiniPro MX069.1 Blender/ Homogenizer, 6.5, 115V Dynamic Blenders - BakeDeco.Com

I know this is a US website….but since it is French made….you can get it in the EU.  They even sell it under another name in the EU (can’t remember the brand name)….with the same attachment…and the attachment is KEY… the standard head will not create the same level of product as the homogenizer head.

Everyone (in my circles) that has purchased this has felt that it took their products up several notches….(from common household stick blenders or cheap Chinese homogenizers.)

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helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

Could you describe what you like about behenyl….and what you switched from?   I have also started using behenyl in my latest hand cream.  But was having trouble putting my finger on what I liked about it.

I have tried all the fatty alcohols in this body cream (which is mostly for my dry hands) I’ve been trying to perfect. I moved from cetyl alcohol (too thin, not protective or cushioned enough) to cetearyl (too oily-waxy) to behenyl. The behenyl alcohol has been able to give a softer, more cushioned, velvety afterfeel than cetyl and cetearyl. Also, due to that cushion, it allows the applying hand to smoothly skim over the skin during application which gives an elegant/modern feel. It also works well with more oily/buttery ingredients as all together, they help to form that smooth cushion on the skin. It takes some tweaking to get it to that point. You need to add enough behenyl alcohol for the wax to have enough coverage to give that smooth/skimmable feel without any gaps/skips. But not too much that it gets draggy and whitening. This balance seems to depends on the other ingredients. I’ve tried some products where I can really feel that softness and elegant cushion of the behenyl alcohol.. and I feel that they are able to pack so much behenyl alcohol in because their other ingredients are very light.. Avene Tolerance Emulsion for example, which is really light and silky to apply but with that soft, cushioned afterfeel (maybe at least 3% behenyl alcohol or more seeing as it’s the only wax ingredient?). I can also feel the behenyl alcohol in Augustinus Bader The Body Cream, where they’ve gone for a heavier, draggy product but with the same soft, cushioned, skimmable afterfeel. It’s combined with a lot of shea butter and other waxes so they might have less behenyl than the amount used for the Avene product.

I was surprised that behenyl alcohol wasn’t as draggy or whitening as I thought it would be.

Is any of the above what you liked about it??   :smiley:

Awesome description.  The hand cream I am working on has 3.6% fatty alcohol, with behenyl being twice as much as Cetyl.  I think you have given me courage to try doing 100% behenyl.

I just got two new crosspolymers today….which felt absolutely astounding neat on the skin….and monumentally better than the first one I bought.  So I will have to run those through the formula…and I will try removing the cetyl and going with 100% behenyl.

Thank you so much for your detailed description.  This is that Illipe butter hand cream I mentioned a while back.  It has some candelilla, glyceryl oleate, and polyisobutene in it…., so getting some really good moisturizing.   Plus I think I have stumbled across some synergies with HA and various silicones.

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What country do you live in?

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helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

Are you meaning palmitic acid as a sole ingredient?  Or also including carrier oils/butters high in palmitic?  You know where I stand on that topic.  

I know it is not the same…but I really like using cetyl palmitate  vs cetyl alcohol.  I feel it makes for a much more elegant end product.

Yep, I mean palmitic acid as a sole ingredient, which I also found it hard to buy… had to order it from Making Cosmetics in the end… there was nowhere in the UK or Europe that had it. That’s compared to stearic acid which is easily obtained everywhere.

My skin seems to like oils and butters which have higher levels of palmitic acid, which is why I was curious to try palmitic acid as a sole ingredient.

I tried cetyl palmitate in this version of a body cream I’ve been making, and it wasn’t quite the right feel or moisturisation. But I have tried it in the past where it did better. I am liking behenyl alcohol at the moment.

Could you describe what you like about behenyl….and what you switched from?   I have also started using behenyl in my latest hand cream.  But was having trouble putting my finger on what I liked about it.

[Graillotion]

Are you meaning palmitic acid as a sole ingredient?  Or also including carrier oils/butters high in palmitic?  You know where I stand on that topic.  

I know it is not the same…but I really like using cetyl palmitate  vs cetyl alcohol.  I feel it makes for a much more elegant end product.

[Graillotion]

I am low-tech, so this one works well for me.

Checker® pH Tester with 0.1 pH Resolution - HI98103 (hannainst.com)

Price is $29.00

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Since when did glass containers equate to quality.  I think glass containers relate to marketing and the perception they want to create in your mind.  The manufactures do not ship in glass, only the re-packers do.  Therefore it is only a created perception.  Just think of how many fake and watered down essential oils get sold every day….in glass!

Also your perception of quality would be different than mine…. if I received something with strong color and odor…, I would perceive this as lower grade or unrefined, and probably unusable in premium products.  I typically use oils and butters from ICSC-Denmark, and they will be clean and mostly odorless.  I can not me battling colors and smells in my products.  Oils are basically fatty acid profiles….and the removal of colors and smells, generally does not change the fatty acid profile.

ICSC products have been available from Make your own.buzz…however they have recently sold the business, and who knows where the new owners will source their oils and butters.

The other place I have gotten really good oils from…is NDA.  I do not know their source.

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MarkBroussard said:

Graillotion said:

If you are in the US… Let’s use Montano 202 as an example…it contains 3 ingredients.  You do not list by inclusion of the individual ingredients, but as a whole.  Say you include 4% Mont 202,…. You place the flowing entry where 4% would fall into your formula: 

Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside

So as an example, if water was your number 1 ingredient, and Mont 202 at 4% was the second largest ingredient…it would be listed second, just like I wrote it.

If you tried to divide the components out….your ‘fragrance’….might have 120 ingredients….  

This is not correct.  If you have 4% of a multi-component ingredient in the formula, you get the Compositional analysis ( let’s say for Montanov 202, it works out to 2% AA, 1.5% BA and 0.5% AG ) and then you list those ingredients in compliance with the labeling regulations based on the % included in the formula.  Fragrances are only required to be listed as Fragrance per the regulations, but if you are selling in the EU, you need to call out the ingredients on the allergy list.

Good to know!  I always hated for my emulsifier to be list so close to the top. 

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Paprik said:

I’m in NZ. I think we follow EU regulations in this matter.

I know how to make an ingredient list, I just got surprised, that there are some ingredients, where they don’t list individual input. So wanted to know how to deal with it. (For my study, I had to do IL, but they supply me with all info needed).

Ok, I will list it as is and on the correct % place. 

Thanks!  

Yes…the purpose of the ‘(and)’ on the INCI….is so you can copy and paste it….on your INCI. Hehehehe…..so leave those in.

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The only reason it looks like some of the big MFG’s are splitting out an emulsifier, like 165 or Mont 202….is because they are making their own from the individual ingredients….due to cost savings, and possible performance enhancements tailored to their products.
If you are buying them ready made…you list them as the group they came in.

When you see the word ‘and’ on an inci…that is a give-away that the product came as a combined ingredient.

[Graillotion]

If you are in the US… Let’s use Montano 202 as an example…it contains 3 ingredients.  You do not list by inclusion of the individual ingredients, but as a whole.  Say you include 4% Mont 202,…. You place the flowing entry where 4% would fall into your formula: 

Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside

So as an example, if water was your number 1 ingredient, and Mont 202 at 4% was the second largest ingredient…it would be listed second, just like I wrote it.

If you tried to divide the components out….your ‘fragrance’….might have 120 ingredients….  

[Graillotion]

what country are you in?

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It sounds like you are trying to make the label INCI?  If so, you have the information.  Is ‘Material Composition’ something different than what it is made of?

Your supplier posts the ingredients….right on the opening page.  It is right after the letters “INCI Name”

[Graillotion]

And the other one is this:

ICE Silicone

MakingCosmetics Inc.

INCI Name:  Cetyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Polyacrylate (and) Polysorbate 80 (and) Glyceryl Stearate (and) Dimethicone/Divinyldimethicone/Silsesquioxane Crosspolymer

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well the inci for Mont 202 is as follows:

MONTANOV™ 202

• Company:

  SEPPIC

• INCI Name:

  Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside

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emma1985 said:

Graillotion said:

suswang8 said:

 I really don’t see how you can use the Dynamic (with Blender Tool) for 100g without introducing a lot of air, but I’m glad (and a bit amazed ) you are able to pull it off.  I do feel like the Dynamic has a head that for some reason is extremely powerful/efficient — more so than the OCIS — perhaps mostly due to the size/shape.

Naturally the ability to keep the head submerged is directly correlated to the shape and size of the beaker you are using.  

The following link will take you to a beaker that is perfectly matched to the Blender tool.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01L0JBZPI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I always make 150gm test batches, so I have plenty of room to spare.  Even when I am working with just the water phase….The head is completely immersed.  I use a lot of powders in my water phase, so the mini-pro sits in the water phase through out the heating process, giving it a number of spins.

Good point!! I don’t know how I forgot to mention that. Appropriate beaker size/shape makes a huge difference.

I love these ..

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006VYY09Q/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_XCGV9385MF12VDHCP3NX?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Both the 250 mL and 500 mL work just fine with the MiniPro.

Actually…that was the brand I used to use…..but was going broke (hehehe) with as many of them that I cracked.  Switched to the other brand…which cost a couple bucks more….and have yet to crack one.

Also…. on the brand I linked….the bottom is much flatter, which gives the top heavy MiniPro a more stable platform when operating.

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

 I really don’t see how you can use the Dynamic (with Blender Tool) for 100g without introducing a lot of air, but I’m glad (and a bit amazed ) you are able to pull it off.  I do feel like the Dynamic has a head that for some reason is extremely powerful/efficient — more so than the OCIS — perhaps mostly due to the size/shape.

Naturally the ability to keep the head submerged is directly correlated to the shape and size of the beaker you are using.  

The following link will take you to a beaker that is perfectly matched to the Blender tool.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01L0JBZPI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I always make 150gm test batches, so I have plenty of room to spare.  Even when I am working with just the water phase….The head is completely immersed.  I use a lot of powders in my water phase, so the mini-pro sits in the water phase through out the heating process, giving it a number of spins.

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I would not leave home without that combo.

And now…. They are sold as a combination in the US finally!!!  Why did that take so long????

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Wonder if that would translate through to the final emulsion color?

Are there known formulas that use that method?

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ngarayeva001 said:

Is there a reason why you don’t want to use Blue 1 FD&C?

Yes…. the premise is basically a natural pain reliever.  Blue #1would defeat that.

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I sent you a PM…if you are new to the forum….You have an INBOX tab at the top of the page.

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saraahsan said:

PhilGeis said:

How much water?  Have you seen any mold or other microbial contamination?

my Lipsticks are water free. but after one year they start smells rancid my clients want more shelf life. at least 2-3 years 

Sounds like you are trying to preserve your oils… You are barking up the wrong tree with parabens…. You need to be looking at antioxidents.

ROE / E / Bisabolol / Oil soluable C….etc..etc.

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Cinema said:

@Graillotion- soaping I encountered early on and figured out how to overcome- not that it can’t happen again. But yeah I have mostly had higher viscosity and am usually trying ways to bring it down.I also had a question- what if there is an ingredient that manufacturers only ship as sample to businesses but I want to try- is there a way to ask around?

I assume you are not a business….. Cuz most of us get our samples from ULProspector, but it is virtually impossible to get an account without being an established business.  The industry is fundamentally based on free samples….I have a room full of them.  So other than getting a ULP account…the only other way I know of….is going directly to their website and asking.  I suppose one other way…(and I have never been….cus Covid made an appearance)…would be attend an industry trade show…..guessing lots of samples there.

HOWEVER… I have long ago realized… If you can not find it at your re-packers….what is the point of getting the sample???  Let’s say you love it….then how are you going to get it???  And you will be left with a feeling of….Oh my product could have been sooooo good, if I just could have included ingredient X.

Maybe state what product you wanted to sample…and we can tell you what products are similar…that might be available from a re-packer.  There is almost always a dupe or sub out there somewhere.  Also…the re-packers like to re-name things…and some of us might know who has it…under what name.