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Padmavathi said:

Carbomer works!
I usually prepare a 2% solution and keep (with preservative).  I add how much I need of this solution, post emulsification, depending on the viscosity I want, and adjust pH.
From what I have observed, the final product thickens the next day. So I’d say don’t add too much.

Hi, 
I always wanted to work with carbomers but the thought of neutralization of to form a gel holds me back. Your approach seems interesting so
  please explain how you prepare your carbomer’s stock solution.
What bases can be used?
Also does adding a 0.5% or above of this stock to an emulsified cream/lotion, thickens it?
Thanks

Why are you not just using the beginner version… The preneutralized version…toss it in…and foe-get-about-it!

Sodium Carbomer, Preneutralized Carbomer | Lotioncrafter

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ngarayeva001  May I ask what is it that you like about isoamyl laurate? I wasn’t impressed by it at all.

Did you try the 100% IL….or the one that is 90% IL…and 10% something else….forget the name at the moment…. But I HATED that 90/10 blend.

Hehehe…I can’t live without my IL…. and I have them all.

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If there is a particular constituent you are chasing…it often can be found in some of the other EO’s….or even synthetically.

Look for the alternatives, where you might like the scent better.

At the moment…I am looking at caravone, so I have the option of spearmint…or caraway…hehehe.

@RedCoast

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You can drop the carbomer, as the sodium lactate will probably negate that, and it won’t do anything at that rate.  You need a more functional/robust emulsification program.

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Abdullah said:

If you add 0.01% Cholecalciferol to an emulsion and apply 2g of that emulsion everyday and your skin absorbed 100% of vitamin D3 from it, you get 8000 IU vitamin D from that emulsion per day. ????

Now you calculate the rest of that. 

I assume there are different potencies?  The one I have is:

Vitamin D3 Cholecalciferol 100,000 ui/gr

Is that what your calculation was based on?

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Perry said:

I don’t know for sure but it is a drug active that requires a prescription. So, then it comes down to why are you adding the ingredient. There is no non-drug reason to add it so that would make it illegal.

That you find creams on Amazon is not surprising. It is difficult for the FDA to keep up on all these different products.

Where can I find this in print?  To this day I can not find anything definitive, for the US market.

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If using fragile oils like Rosehip and the likes…work on the upper end of the range.

If using oils like meadowfoam and CCT….you can work on the lower end of the range. 

Aloha!

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I have been using it since almost the beginning….and it is in all formulas.  I view it as a preservative booster.  Since I do not use parabens or F releasers…I figured I would enhance my E9010 multiple other ways, Symsave H being one of them.

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suswang8 said:

Way too much rosemary.  I thought 0.1% is the recommendation?

ROE is just fine.  Rates range from .02-.5%.  Just depends on what type of oils you are working with.  Carnosic acid levels will vary from supplier to supplier as well, 4-7.5% is common.  It is mostly a sunflower or olive carrier oil anyway.

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suswang8 said:

Thoughts on water that has been boiled and put through a Zero Water filter?

One of the reason’s we don’t boil tap water….is it still carries the full mineral load….even after boiling. Why not this….if you’re gonna go to the lengths of boiling it…why not just finish the process….and distill it?

If that was your only option…I would do it in the reverse order….as I am sure your filter is veritable petri dish of lovelies, negating the boiling.

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I never read the label on my distilled water before tonight.  Is says:
Processed by: Steam distillation, microfiltration, ozonation.

So is that the trifecta….as good as I could hope for from a big box store purchase, @PhilGeis ?

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Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

I’m gonna guess… High acyl….after viewing this chart:

Where did you get this chart?????

I got it here:

Best Selling High Acyl Gellan Gum - E418 Gellan Gum Supplier (gumstabilizer.com)

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I’m gonna guess… High acyl….after viewing this chart:

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Ilsme said:

Hi Graillotion, I would say, there are no gums that help texturize same as polymerics, especially if you’d like to have a light cream in a jar. There’s no problem with rich creams.
I also have never tested nice “all natural” bodylotion without polymerics and silicons because the soaping is too bad I just can’t stand it. Unfortunately Germany goes the natural road at the moment: Natrue or Cosmos certified it’s a nightmare.

We’ve tested many natural gums and gellating agents, one combination wich gives a good viscosity and quite nice texture is xanthan gum & gellan gum (80:20). At the moment this is my favorite and works well, I’ve managed to formulate some moisturizers I really enjoy.
There is definitely a synergy between xanthan gum and carrob gum i just haven’t found the right persentage that I would be pleased about. Carrob gum changes the texture with a very small percentage, be carefull there if you try it out.

I wasn’t a fan of Solagum AX, I must say. 
Everything I tested with pullulan in it has a pilling effect but it’s a known for an imediate tightening because of the film forming..

P.S. I must say, I’m fan of yours

Thank you for your feedback.  To be quite honest…I have not heard of gellan gum.  I do read that there are two versions….low acyl and high acyl.  Which version are you using in cosmetics?

So something like Siligel, which has a very small amount of pullulan…were you still finding pilling?  Did you ever test Siligel?

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Once you do your knockouts….please post back…who was the culprit.

Aloha.

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Perry said:

I’m not sure if you are creating products for yourself or for customers, but the better people to answer a subjective question like this is your customers.  This really comes down to a preference.

If you objectively look at the question then the answer for most people could be found in looking at what products most people use.  For an online customer brands like CeraVe, Aveeno, and Jergens seems to be the best.  

But isn’t what most people use….directly correlated to marketing budgets, and locations available for purchase?

And someone on this forum…    …. often says the consumer can not feel the minor nuances in formulation, which I would agree with.  So what I am was asking…in a nutshell….was on a pure textural platform….who has done a good job with using gums…vs polymerics (amongst those with the big marketing budgets).

As I looked through some big name formulas…I get the impression… a good supporting cast…can create a ‘good enough’ product to compete with the polymerics???

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Perry said:

Thank you all!  Can’t wait to have the Cosmetic Formulation Q&A with @Pharma  (coming later this month)

I was wondering when that was gonna happen!  Can’t wait.

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Pattsi said:

I’m not sure I understand your question well.
I will name a few that I ( kind of ) like, not really blown away or anything.

Clarins hand and nail
Burt’s Bees baobab oil ultimate care hand cream
Eucerin Advanced repair hand - red cap tube
La Roche-Posay Cicaplast baume B5

If i have to pick one, I would say La Roche-Posay. 

Personally I don’t like high gum or gums in emulsion other than pullulan ( is pullulan a gum? I don’t know ). 
Have you tried wax, rice bran wax is quite nice.

Thank for the list…I will look through them.

So am I understanding you correctly…. The only products that have impressed you (texturally)…. always included polymeric emulsifiers?

I do not intend on using gums at a high rate.  I get all I am asking for with .2-.25%.

When you mention pullulan…is that by itself…or in conjunction with gums?  The marketing blurbs mention a ‘synergy’ with the gums.

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Abdullah said:

In my experience small amounts of thickeners in different  phases and different types make a lot of improvement in viscosity and feel than adding too much thickener in one phase or one type.

If you add even 1% wax to your emulsion it increase viscosity dramatically but i don’t like how they feel. Maybe because i have only used beeswax. 

Agree completely…not only on thickeners…..but I also follow this principle in emollients, humectants and barrier function as well.  So I create each structural segment of a good moisturizer with multiple pieces.  So wax (I use Candelilla) never above .5%, and gums never above .25%

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Pharma said:

It was a pleasure to read through this thread 🙂 !

Regarding Acacia gum aka gum Arabic: We used to use that and Tragacanth in different pharmaceutical preparations. I never really liked their feel… however, I’ve never tried either of the two at lower % in cosmetic preparations. I think I still have some native ones somewhere in my collection. I guess I now have to reincarnate at least the Acacia gum (if I can find it). One of its main constituents are arabinogalactan proteins which show a unique emulsion stabilising effect related to Pickering emulsions or hydrophobically modified polyacrylates.

I just watched a video (re-packer video at mommy blogger level) showing the different gums in water at 1%.  The Acacia that they used….essentially added NO viscosity.  Have you found this to be the case?  So if that is the case….then Acacia’s place is simply as an emulsion stabilizer…and not so much about texture and viscosity?  And they did mention (without explanation) that it did help to stabilize or solubilize the oil phase as I recall.

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There is some value in comments about theory, but the comments from those who have actually taken the time, and made the effort to test through these tedious combinations it is without equal. For the 1% of people that can feel, and care about the tiny details and nuances, these efforts cannot be found elsewhere.
The One percenters in life, are the people that make life better for the 99%.  If mediocrity rules the day, we can all get our cosmetics at WalMart.  I am simply not happy with that option.  I do NOT believe that all the synergies have been discovered, and that better things are yet to be created.  I think creativity comes from smaller brands where we are not hamstrung with existing formulas, and sku’s that are on the shelf.  Creativity comes from the sharing of ideas that can be implemented onto a clean sheet of paper….No industry bias allowed.
Sounds like you had a bad day, so hope tomorrow is better for you.

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ggpetrov said:

I am curious how exactly did you find that the unpleasant feeling is caused by the the Xanthan gum? The Xanthan gum is used in practically almost every cosmetic emulsion, but they all are so different by their haptical properies. So if you feel all of that unpleasant effects, maybe the reason is somewhere else.
Also, we are talking about Glyceryl stearate peg-100 stearate and Glyceryl stearate citrate which are far away from the imagine of an emulsifiers, which give haptically pleasant emulsions.
This forum constantly disappoints me, especially with that kind of inadequate threads.

Pharma said:

It was a pleasure to read through this thread 🙂 !

That was an interesting tone .  As Perry would say, 99% of the public won’t be able to feel the difference of small nuances that some of us work with.  And I agree…. but the 1% are people also…and should be respected as such.

Are you saying if you made a formula with .2% X-gum, and .5% X-gum, you would be unable to tell a difference?  I guarantee you…the professional formulas you refer to…had some recent chemistry grad….making graduated versions with many types of gums, at many different inclusion rates, until they found the ‘Ah hah moment’,

If this forum disappoints….may I ask which forums you relish?  I would like to visit them as well.  To date, I have found none better than this one.

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helenhelen said:

I didn’t like the “Soft” version of xanthan gum.

1) I definitely preferred xanthan and sclerotium gum together. Xanthan is as you know stringy and contributes to soaping. Adding sclerotium (I used Amigum) helped on both aspects…

2) … But sclerotium on its own wasn’t great, as it forms too much of a springy blancmange texture and has a firmer, heavier/richer feel with more residue.. it needs xanthan gum to soften those aspects. Xanthan is also meant to provide better stability.

https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/438-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-I.html

https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/443-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-II-Gum-blending.html

6) I found 50:50 a good ratio. More xanthan is stringy and soapy, and more sclerotium is heavier and springy.

Great read…and thank you for all that great feedback.  I always enjoy reading your responses. 

First question…if you don’t like X-gum Soft…what version did you like…just straight up X-gum….or clear?

Thank you for the Skinchakra links…very good reads….HOWEVER… now I will have to try Solagum AX! 

That and I will of course have to ask the question…If Acacia and sclerotium both enhance the feel of X-gum…. What would happen if you combined Acacia and sclerotium?     

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@Pharma

I am following.

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Agree with @Syl, as long as the subject remains X-Gum.

Can change with other gelling agents.