Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
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Yes…you have the decimal point in the wrong place on the Vit E. Should be .5%, not 5%.
Hydrolyzed Sodium Hyaluronate…. YES, the ‘Hydro’ in hydrolyzed…. means water. Like said above….it could be one drop in an entire vat. Same with the last ingredient, probably half drop per batch. Hence, getting by with the lack of preservative.
But if I had to guess…. they are using something like this: Hyaluronic Acid, Oleo-HA | Lotioncrafter
Or this…as it has the water.
AKA: EndiMoist® 3OS from Coast Southwest
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Sometimes due to all the magical elixirs the Swiss guy has me concoct; my emulsions can sometimes become a little dingy. This is the perfect fix…. EVERY TIME! @Squinny Here is looking at you… Hawaiian Noni and Gotu kola (Centella asiatica)!
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You have so many ingredients….doing a knock-out is gonna take a while. But I’d probably start with the one that has copper.
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Squinny said:Sounds like you have nailed it or close to
I like the sound of adding the Buah Merah Oil (have never used but will look into at some time, not sure I can buy in Australia - I’ll look at my usual suppliers though). Cheers 5 drops of Buah Merah in a 150 gram batch, will create the most elegant and beautiful pink you have ever seen. I have seen no fade over time….granted I have only used it for about 6 months. Hehehe….it has an ORAC rating of 69,500 …. hmmn….what to market on this potion???
Fortunately I can get this from two reputable places in the US…. Jedwards, and Premier Specialties. Note the oil itself…is the darkest blood red…you have ever seen. I think anything more than use as a colorant….would stain the skin! -
Squinny said:Hi I have never bought any but after making a few whipped butters and finding them way to greasy (for my personal preferences), I started making emulsified butters and they arent at all greasy. The actual % of butters are quite low though (I use a mix of Cocoa Butter pellets, Mango Butter with a few different Oils (MCT, Macadamia) with OliveM1000 and Cetearyl Alcohol. Water phase I just use Distilled Water and Glycerine + Chelator. In Cooldown I use whatever Essentials Oils or Fragrance Oils + Preservatives etc depending on what results I want with the product. Thats my basics anyway. Just play around with and see what you think. You can make for around $2 (USD) I reckon for 100g pot.
Yeah…I would never consider making one of those grease bomb anhydrous ones. I can’t stand feeling like a seabird caught in an oil spill.
I did make the first version last night….I looked at a number of high end products….and found a few consensus ingredients… and was quite surprised to find it looked like I had written a lot of the formulas…hehehe.
First formula….I did a basic split of Montanov 202 and 165 (with the proverbial kiss of supporting GSC). This gives me the lightest feel generally. I put a blend of Aristoflex AVC and carbomer in to give a gel undertone. Found lots of formulas that backed my thoughts on Myristyl myristate, so that went in at a slightly higher rate than the cetyl palmitate. Of course, most formulas were using cetearyl alchohol, and I made my standard deviation to behenyl.
As far as lipids…I of course deferred to the best… Illipe butter from ICSC, Denmark…. and since I live it Hawaii…Oils were Mac Nut (from Floratech…this is a whole nother level of mac nut oil!) and kukui and babassu.
Cut back on my typically heavy splash of Isoamyl laurate, and tried to somewhat replace it with Lauryl laurate, as I figured that was a better fit for a butter.
Other than a kiss of dimethicone…I left out a couple of my best friends, D5 and Polymethylsilsesquioxane, which I sorely missed…. but granted….I have never used a body butter, maybe they are not supposed to feel orgasmic? Needless to say,…. Version two will have them. I will also toss in another friend…. Distarch Phosphate…which might just be the finishing touch, to make this magic.
And to top it all off….colored it a beautiful pink with a few drops of Buah Merah oil….that stuff never ceases to amaze me.
Rubbed in with less than a single stroke.
Aloha.
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PhilGeis said:As Pharma noted, it can be both the microbe and its products. You may also find pink with less-common contaminants Chromobacter and contaminating fungi - esp. yeastlike fungi Rhodotorula.
Thank you.
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Pharma said:One pink/orange/red colouring bacterium is Serratia marcescens, it’s ubiquitous and an opportunistic pathogen.Another colour can be produced by Pseudomonas aeruginose (also an ubiquitous and opportunistic pathogen). Its pigments are greenish blue, yellowish and dirty red. Colour pigments change to red at lower pH which might result in pink hues in a product.
Thank you. So, you are saying the organism itself….provides the color…not some type of output/excrement.
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I guess I’ll start…. I suspect the hands down winner and king of barrier will be petrolatum. As EDTA is the King of chelates, I suspect petrolatum will be crowned the King of barriers. From the inception of my formulating forays, I have used neither EDTA nor petrolatum. Neither one do I have an issue with, just didn’t want to be in the same ‘box’ as every other formulator. I also wanted to target a piece of the market that might frown on these ingredients. So, for chelate, I have only used GLDA. Barrier has been another story… Since I chosen the road less traveled, and I have a tendency to complicate things vs make them simple….AND…I want the barrier to be imperceptible, I have focused on using the following barriers tools in synergy:
Acai Sterols …. Feels just like Vaseline…and gives what I feel is almost the same barrier punch as petrolatum… but due to it’s viscosity…must be used in moderation
Squalane Wax … Vitaly turned me on to this product a year ago… Simply a OMG moment, that ranks right there with my first encounter with Polymethylsilsesquioxane. Squalane wax comes out of Spain, and once you let this slip into your skin….you’ll wonder where the word ‘wax’ fits in. Think of it as the best natural plant butter….you were never able to find.
Floraesters K-20W Jojoba … Well….simply…how can you make anything without this guy??? Dimethicone Kill two birds with one stone here….add a little barrier, and rest assured you have no soaping.
Life doesn’t get any better.The last group, I’ll just lump together as the provide a little, but not much: behenyl alcohol, cetyl palmitate and Myristyl myristate. These are added for structure and haptics, and a little barrier comes along for the ride.
Aloha.
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ngarayeva001 said:Have you considered go polymeric completely? For example Pemulen EZ4U + Sepinov/Zen.
As I have too many actives, I think there will be an antagonism. So, I have only dared use Zen at .4% (When you have three people whispering in your ear, and you put each of their top picks in…..it adds up quickly.)
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Pharma said:I’m also for polyglyceryl esters.
A cursory glance through the vendors….this looks like the easiest one to find:
Sorbitan laurate, polyglyceryl-4 laurate, dilauryl citrateDoes any of the additional baggage cause any concern?
Not sure why it is so hard to find PG-4 from repackers in the US???
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Pharma said:Show the consumers some chemical structures to make them think ‘Wow, that company is so scientific, they really have to know their shit!’…
Thank you for taking the time to illustrate this in such an entertaining manner. I guess now it all adds up….with 10 years on the market, why this product is not ruling the world. And here I was thinking….’they must really know their s#it’!
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So, for clarification…. how would one compare how Pentavitin sticks to the skin, when comparing with a product that would use a cationic emulsifier? For the sake of illustration…. let’s keep this to a leave on lotion or cream for skin.
Will a cationic lotion stick just as well as Pentavitin? Will pentavitin stick to the skin until desquamation naturally removes it (hence the 72 hour advertising) ? How long does a good cationic stick to the skin….and what it the mechanism of removal from the skin of a cationic cream/lotion?
I don’t particularly like working with cationics…..so is Pentavitin a ‘back door’ in to creating a cationic ‘residual effect’ in a cream/lotion. Or is this just way off base?
Aloha.
@Pharma
@Z@zetein
@Vitalys
@MarkBroussard -
If you are in the USA…cosmetics is still pretty much the wild wild West. Keep the PCB’s, glyphosate and Leucidal products out, and all is good.
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I and others, use ingredients from bulk supplements on a regular basis. Some would contend, that food grade is a better grade…. As in… Something that goes in you, might be held to a higher standard than something that can just go on you.
Aloha.
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Pharma said:What kind of question is this exactly?If it’s a marketing Q: Yes, sure, it will always work.If it’s a chemical Q: Depends on the extract and its composition. Generally, plant extracts are more likely to be stable at lower pH. However, there are also constituents which are most stable at +/- neutral pH and others which are always unstable (such as chamazulene).If it’s a spiritual/esoteric Q: Theoretically yes, ‘activity’ in this field usually doesn’t care about natural laws of physics and chemistry etc.And finally a pharmacological Q: Most likely, that extract of yours is so highly diluted already that, once incorporated into any type of formulation, it simply never works.
I hope your comedic genius is fully appreciated.
(Could you have missed your calling?) -
Paprik said:@ngarayeva001, thanks! … sorry, one more question, how much of a base do I need to add? (Let’s say I would use Sodium Hydroxide). Is there any ratio?
No…not an amount….the target is a pH.
You’re not gonna like that number…it is HIGH! There are some old threads on the topic.
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Ezo said:Graillotion said:When I look at mfg sample formulas…they are mixing 1 part alpha arbutin, with 10 parts water. You might try the same.
Why do you have both a O/W emulsifier and a W/O emulsifier in the same formula? Just curious.
…and you have enough AB…I think the top end is about 2%.
That preservation system….hmmn…pretty suspect (without much in the way of potentiators, other than the GLDA). …my first thing to address…. would be that. (gonna be a bit weak on the Y/M/F set.) If only for personal use…and using quickly…will probably be ok.
Hey Graillotion, thanks for your response! I can try to do the 1 part to 10 parts water. Since I am a newbie I was not filly aware you should keep the O/W or W/O emulsifier consistent. Since I am adding high amount of oil soluble ingredient’s into the base, the emulsifier I used seem to help incorporate it. Should this be replaced with an emulsifier that is the same as the one the base already uses?
I am sorry could you define AB, or at least the initials you used. For the preservation system, you are right, I could try to add additional phenoxyethanol and ethylhexylglycerin?
AB =
Alpha arbutin
Regarding preservation….adding more of the same…will not enhance the weakness that product already has. You need to add something that works well against yeast, mold and fungi. Yes, EHG is a good addition to phenoxy…but still not a direct hit on the weaknesses.
Yes…you need to pick an emulsion system…and stick with it.
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Most of the base creams sold….only allow for a small percent of add ins…like 1-3%. When I calculate the water you will need plus your other add-ins….it is looking like 20%.
I think you will have to build the cream from the ground up….which in this case…looks to be a good idea.
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Have you considered a different source for the base cream? The more I look at that formula….the more it screams… Mommy Blogger.
Does it feel good to you?
Do you really want coconut oil on your face?
There is a ‘search bar’ on this site…that can be a wonderful asset. Type ‘alpha arbutin’ in….and you can see all past conversations on the topic.
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When I look at mfg sample formulas…they are mixing 1 part alpha arbutin, with 10 parts water. You might try the same.
Why do you have both a O/W emulsifier and a W/O emulsifier in the same formula? Just curious.
…and you have enough AB…I think the top end is about 2%.
That preservation system….hmmn…pretty suspect (without much in the way of potentiators, other than the GLDA). …my first thing to address…. would be that. (gonna be a bit weak on the Y/M/F set.) If only for personal use…and using quickly…will probably be ok.
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ngarayeva001 said:An update! I ordered aminopropyl dimethicone and tried it in a very generic hair conditioner at 4% (to minimize inputs of other ingredients). The conditioning is on a new level! Thank you @Pharma
Do you see a place for this…outside of haircare? (skincare)
Did you source it from Thailand?
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I could not find it (of course). But someone has posted a link…to the history of cold creams… which discusses how in the presence of a strong alkali, stearic acid can be converted to a stearate soap (simple emulsifier). Where the confusion my lay…. is stearic acid WILL thicken without the alkali….however…thicken and emulsify…are not the same.
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Paprik said:ketchito said:@Fekher You also need to add some base (sodium hydroxide for instance) to neutralize the Stearic acid, so it can work as an emulsifier.
I have never understood this.
So Stearic acid needs some base to be able to be emulsifier (saponification I reckon). But wouldn’t it need higher pH to be able to maintain its properties? Meaning, if you would take the pH back down, it should “separate”, shouldn’t it?
Could you please explain it to me good man?Hehehe….Yes I have met others that did your course work, and they did not understand it as well. In fact, they got violent when I tried to explain it….and I had to leave the group, as no one needs that in their life.