Cosmetic Science Talk

Cosmetic Science discussion form. For people who want for formulate cosmetics and get advice from other formulators around the world.

Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating what make Pantene conditioner feel so good on my hair?

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    September 18, 2022 at 1:26 pm

    I can’t usually see much use for cationic materials outside of hair care but  you should check that supplier. They have almost anything you might want to buy. Very good customer service, they provide all MSDSs and deliver to the UK within just a week. Shipping cost for me is cheaper than when I order from the US. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    September 17, 2022 at 8:17 am

    An update! I ordered aminopropyl dimethicone and tried it in a very generic hair conditioner at 4% (to minimize inputs of other ingredients). The conditioning is on a new level! Thank you @Pharma

    Do you see a place for this…outside of haircare?  (skincare)

    Did you source it from Thailand?

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    September 17, 2022 at 5:47 am

    An update! I ordered aminopropyl dimethicone and tried it in a very generic hair conditioner at 4% (to minimize inputs of other ingredients). The conditioning is on a new level! Thank you @Pharma

  • ketchito

    Member
    September 5, 2022 at 11:49 am

    @nhatnguyen10 I believe that silicone is already available from some suppliers.

  • nhatnguyen10

    Member
    September 3, 2022 at 9:30 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Red_Head The final effect depends on how you formulate your product (what other ingredients you use, the level of silicone, etc). You’d need to pick up the same base and add each silicone to make a fair comparison.

    Amodimethicones deposit more selectively, and form a more even film on hair (covering more area and avoiding overdeposition). That is an upgrade in performance compared to non charged dimethicones. But that doesn’t mean you cannot have a well performing product using only a dimethicone (P&G in the past only used dimethicone, till the BA propyl dimethicone was developed for them, and kept as a patent for some years).

    Is that mean that i cannot use BA dimethicone in my commerical products? 

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    August 29, 2022 at 1:10 pm

    Prob should read P&G’s relevant patents - both for technology and your reapplication

  • ketchito

    Member
    August 29, 2022 at 12:10 pm

    @Red_Head The final effect depends on how you formulate your product (what other ingredients you use, the level of silicone, etc). You’d need to pick up the same base and add each silicone to make a fair comparison.

    Amodimethicones deposit more selectively, and form a more even film on hair (covering more area and avoiding overdeposition). That is an upgrade in performance compared to non charged dimethicones. But that doesn’t mean you cannot have a well performing product using only a dimethicone (P&G in the past only used dimethicone, till the BA propyl dimethicone was developed for them, and kept as a patent for some years).

  • Red_Head

    Member
    August 27, 2022 at 8:05 pm

    whenever I find a product with bis-aminopropyl dimethicone I buy it. I have a crush on this silicone :)

    I see Dimethicone BA most often in P&G products. One of the greasiest products I’ve ever bought is the Aussie SOS Supercharged Moisture. 
    It is absolutely not slippery, but at the same time it is very heavy on the hair. I don’t like that because it detangles my hair badly, smells weird and doesn’t make my hair soft, but this is solved with leave-in conditioners or oils. This product really kill frizz, although I’m unlikely to buy it again.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 27, 2022 at 6:12 am

    ketchito said:

    @Red_Head Why would you think Dimethicone deposits better than Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone? Amine functionalized dimethicones deposit at some level through interaction with binding sites on hair. Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone has two binding sites (compared to single amino dimethicones), helping it deposit better and more selectively. Also, when positively charged, it also helps form a more even film on hair, avoiding overdeposition.

    Have you used Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone? 
    How do you compare it to 100k cst amodimethicone?

  • Abdullah

    Member
    August 27, 2022 at 6:10 am

    Red_Head said:

    ketchito said:

    @Red_Head Why would you think Dimethicone deposits better than Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone? 

    About bis-aminopropyl dimethicone i read:
    “It actually bonds to damaged areas on the hair’s cuticle”

    That is, it sticks like amodimethicone, only to negatively charged areas of the hair, but better than amodimethicone (it seems to me) and worse than dimethicone. Logically, this means that regular dimethicone will stick everywhere, not just selectively, like BA dimethicone.

    If dimethicone accumulates better (not to the point of build-up, I think build-up is almost impossible considering that most shampoos are SLES + CAPB), does this not mean that it will protect the hair better, because it is more difficult to wash off, sticks more and reacts less to physical actions (combing, touching hands, styling hair)?
    Another thought is that most of the big companies use dimethicone, amodimethicone, dimethiconol in their formulas. I see BA dimethicone only in products from P&G (I mean from the mass market).
    I haven’t had a chance to compare dimethicone and BA dimethicone in the same formula, so all I’ve said is just a theory that may have nothing to do with the real situation, which is why I asked.

    All of them deposit on all parts of hair. Amodimethicone binds more to damaged parts. 
    For example: if total 6mg silicone deposit on hair, for dimethicone, it will deposit equally on all parts of hair. For amodimethicone, 4mg will deposit on tips that are damaged and need more conditioning and 2mg will deposit on roots that are healthy and don’t need more silicone. 

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    August 26, 2022 at 9:24 pm

    @Pharma thank you very much! I checked all silicones they had in June as I was placing an order and it’s either new addition or I managed to miss it! I am going to order and hope it’s similar.

  • Pharma

    Member
    August 26, 2022 at 6:41 pm
    Isn’t bis-aminopropyl dimethicone very similar to aminopropyl dimethicone (jugding by the scarce info I could find regarding their structures)?
    @ngarayeva001 Myskinrecipes would have the latter in stock (they call it Silicone Hi-Cond).
  • nhatnguyen10

    Member
    August 26, 2022 at 6:24 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Red_Head Why would you think Dimethicone deposits better than Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone? Amine functionalized dimethicones deposit at some level through interaction with binding sites on hair. Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone has two binding sites (compared to single amino dimethicones), helping it deposit better and more selectively. Also, when positively charged, it also helps form a more even film on hair, avoiding overdeposition.

    I usually prefer conditioners and serums of my own making to anything commercial but whenever I find a product with bis-aminopropyl dimethicone I buy it. I have a crush on this silicone :)

    What BA dimethicone percentage do you recommend to use in conditioner? Should i combine it with other silicones ( dimethicone, amodimethicone, etc)?

    beside serum, should i add it to shampoo (or use dimethicone for shampoo)?

    Thank you!
  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    August 26, 2022 at 4:17 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Red_Head Why would you think Dimethicone deposits better than Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone? Amine functionalized dimethicones deposit at some level through interaction with binding sites on hair. Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone has two binding sites (compared to single amino dimethicones), helping it deposit better and more selectively. Also, when positively charged, it also helps form a more even film on hair, avoiding overdeposition.

    I usually prefer conditioners and serums of my own making to anything commercial but whenever I find a product with bis-aminopropyl dimethicone I buy it. I have a crush on this silicone :)

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    August 26, 2022 at 4:09 pm

    If you like that conditioner try this https://www.pantene.co.uk/en-gb/hair-products/hair-treatments/rescue-shots/ bis-aminopropyl dimethicone is a second ingredient. I have been looking for it for months but it’s not sold at small quantities anywhere I know.

  • Red_Head

    Member
    August 26, 2022 at 2:51 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Red_Head Why would you think Dimethicone deposits better than Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone? 

    About bis-aminopropyl dimethicone i read:
    “It actually bonds to damaged areas on the hair’s cuticle”

    That is, it sticks like amodimethicone, only to negatively charged areas of the hair, but better than amodimethicone (it seems to me) and worse than dimethicone. Logically, this means that regular dimethicone will stick everywhere, not just selectively, like BA dimethicone.

    If dimethicone accumulates better (not to the point of build-up, I think build-up is almost impossible considering that most shampoos are SLES + CAPB), does this not mean that it will protect the hair better, because it is more difficult to wash off, sticks more and reacts less to physical actions (combing, touching hands, styling hair)?
    Another thought is that most of the big companies use dimethicone, amodimethicone, dimethiconol in their formulas. I see BA dimethicone only in products from P&G (I mean from the mass market).
    I haven’t had a chance to compare dimethicone and BA dimethicone in the same formula, so all I’ve said is just a theory that may have nothing to do with the real situation, which is why I asked.
  • ketchito

    Member
    August 26, 2022 at 11:18 am

    @Red_Head Why would you think Dimethicone deposits better than Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone? Amine functionalized dimethicones deposit at some level through interaction with binding sites on hair. Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone has two binding sites (compared to single amino dimethicones), helping it deposit better and more selectively. Also, when positively charged, it also helps form a more even film on hair, avoiding overdeposition.

  • Perry

    Member
    August 25, 2022 at 7:10 pm

    @Red_Head - It’s a good question. I’ve not worked at P&G so I can only guess. However, I think they use it because it works well enough, at the right price, and is probably easier to remove from hair with a shampooing. Also, more deposition doesn’t necessarily equal better conditioning.

  • Red_Head

    Member
    August 25, 2022 at 6:11 pm

    Perry said:

    It has nothing to do with the fatty alcohols. Rather, it is the Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine and the Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone, plus it has a very well liked fragrance.

    I’ve always wanted to ask you why Pantene uses bis-aminopropyl dimethicone in their formulas instead of regular dimethicone. As far as I know, dimethicone sticks to hair better. So, if you follow my theory, conditioners with ordinary dimethicone will work better. But this is only theoretical. I know from this forum (and BB, thx) that P&G spends the most money researching the effectiveness of their products and that Pantene won the blind consumer test.

  • nhatnguyen10

    Member
    August 24, 2022 at 5:13 pm

    Perry said:

    It has nothing to do with the fatty alcohols. Rather, it is the Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine and the Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone, plus it has a very well liked fragrance.

    Wow, i never think about it. Always hear good things about the fatty alcohol. What percentage should i use for Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine and Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone? 

    stearamidopropyl dimethylamine vs cetrimonium chloride Vs dimethicone vs amodimethicone. Which one should I use? And why?
    Can i combine little bit of everything? 
    Really appreciate your help! 
  • Perry

    Member
    August 23, 2022 at 10:38 pm

    It has nothing to do with the fatty alcohols. Rather, it is the Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine and the Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone, plus it has a very well liked fragrance.