[Graillotion]

Where did you source yours from? @GeorgeBenson

Mine has a very faint…maybe fruity wine smell.

I have not found it to carry through…however I do use some form of fragrance in everything.

I did make a batch (per client request) of unscented deo, which uses 5% TEC…and again did not notice it in final formula.

[Graillotion]

Squinny said:

Cool - assume you added your 2% or did you add more? The docs I have say 5% is the limit (or is that not correct?) So is it ok to add the Oil phase (heated) for  formula? I’ll put some in my next body lotion for myself to check it out as I have now a lot left over I wont use in my Deo. Cheers

I actually went with 3% (this is still just about a third of the emollients, kept the IPM and Lauryl laurate).  But looking through formulas….they were going MUCH higher (than 5).  Just put it on the back of your hand neat…and observe for an hour…hehehe….you’ll keep touching your hand.  Also very moisturizing…or at least gives that sensory perception.  No residual oil feel on the surface, and this was pretty oily product…. 15% natural lipids.

One of my mentors uses TEC at a range of 3-22%, as an emollient.  It is not bothered by heat…so just toss into your oil phase at the beginning….unless you are pairing it with volatile partners like EO’s or fragrance.

I am fortunate (USA) to have a supplier where I can get it for half the price of Isoamyl laurate (repacker price). 

[Graillotion]

Well….to answer my own question… OMG TEC is an amazing emollient.  Subbed TEC for most of my Isoamyl Laurate…and OMG…I liked the product better.  Non-greasy…and velvety smooth.

Is TEC the best kept secret in the biz….and we’re not supposed to talk about it….just keep the secret to ourselves?  I’ll shut up…if I am letting the cat out of the bag.   

[Graillotion]

Ghita37 said:

Also the bobbi brown cleansing oil features Isopropyl Palmitate which has a comedogenic rating of 3/4 so this is a no no:) So my idea is non comedogenic. 

Thank you very much 

Many people fail to grasp the concept of comedogenic.  This rating is made at 100%.  Meaning they apply JUST that material.  A lot of the ingredients that have a comedogenic rating, you will find when they are included at typical rates in formulation….say under 5%, that rating becomes ZERO.

[Graillotion]

Look at something like glyceryl oleate…widely used in both types (as a co-emulsifier).  

[Graillotion]

I have found something like this helpful:  Shiseido Benefiance Wrinkle Smoothing Eye Cream ingredients (Explained) (incidecoder.com)

This is probably a W/O emulsion…so the emulsifiers will look different than what you might be familiar with.  

Polyglyceryl-2 Diisostearate is an emulsifier, and glyceryl oleate is a coemulsifier, and refatting agent.

If you have never used ‘incidecoder.com’ …. I found it was a helpful learning tool….when looking at commercial formulas…and figuring out…what did what.  As I learned more…I also became very aware of lots of inaccuracies in the program as well…and I think it is computer generated…and not reviewed.    But still a good place to learn some fundamentals.

@pma 

[Graillotion]

You’ll never find a nicer wax…then this one.  I think it has a 35% squalane content.

Buy Bulk - Olive Wax | Jedwards International (bulknaturaloils.com)

No amount of oil…will provide ‘hydra’tion.   If you want more barrier function… look at some of the Floratech products (jojoba esters…especially Floraesters K-20W)…and acai sterols.

[Graillotion]

Acme Hardesty had several moisturizer formulas with a range of 2-9% TEC.  If anyone is using it as an emollient, what is your use rate.  I only have about 2% room to play with…so that was going to be my initial shot.

BTW…I am sure many of the professional comments will be related to COG’s….and for me… and my small MOQ purchases….I can buy TEC for exactly half the price of Isoamyl laurate!

I should state…the formula already has Isoamyl laurate, IPM and Lauryl laurate.

[Graillotion]

GeorgeBenson said:

Great, thanks for the info. 

Can TEC also be used as a solubilizer for fragrance oils in place of say, polysorbate 80?

Sorry…my reference to EO’s was meant to be all inclusive…of oil based fragrance.

[Graillotion]

Aloha.

I started working with TEC when I developed a pain cream and a mosquito repellent that contained a good jag of EO’s.  (Later learned to love it even more…while working with urea (HydroVance)…and deo.)

It is of course…oil soluble.  It is also a nice emollient in and of itself….so too much…is generally not an issue.  I use 5% in my cream deo.  (BTW…even though it is esterified citric acid….you can put it on your skin neat…if you want to feel it.)

But back to your questions.  I think you’ll want to blend this together separately with the ingredient you are trying to extend the fragrance with.  When I was advised how much to use…. I was told start with 1%.  

There are a plethora of ways to extend fragrance, TEC being just one of many.

@chemicalmatt was the one that turned me on to TEC originally, and later @Pharma with pH drift, and then @vitalys with deo development.  Wow…is it even possible to formulate without TEC?    Thank You all.

Happy formulating.

(When buying small amounts of TEC…I find this place to have wonderful service and prices.  I buy a kilo at a time from them.)  Buy Triethyl Citrate (TEC) Online Store - Essential Natural Oils

[Graillotion]

Paprik said:

If I am not mistaken Glyceryl Stearate Citrate is anionic high HLB emulsifier - O/W. 
But it looks like you are trying to formulate W/O emulsion [Sorbitan Olivate, High lipid input, Lower water, zinc balms are usually W/O] …. Or if you are not trying to formulate W/O you should consider it (?)

Or add high HLB non-ionic emulsifier with little less Sorbitan Olivate. 

I think it only holds together when cooled down due to the waxy material that solidify. But there is not enough high HLB emulsifier to hold all that lipid. 

- Rheology modifier (gum, polymer) is also good for stability. For example XG for O/W or Polyamide-3 for W/O. 
-Accelerated stability testing is a double-edged sword. As you mentioned, in RT it is ok. Sometimes things that are happening in the over won’t happen in real life. But it is a good indicator. Freeze/thaw is also very good - go for 6 cycles. 

Hope this helps a little bit, hopefully someone will have another idea what is going on  

I think there is a ‘typo’ in the original post:

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate SE 

No such thing that I am aware of ….. There is Glyceryl Stearate SE, and there is : Glyceryl Stearate Citrate  …. but have you ever heard of a GSC SE???

I would guess …they were using Glyceryl Stearate SE ….which is, hmmmh….   (I don’t think so…category.)

[Graillotion]

I have had tons of experiments that won’t go together until the temp cools a bit.  NONE of those are EVER stable.

Generally, I fixed those concerns with using a minimum of 2% of a 165 type emulsifier (blended together with various other partners), or using almost entirely 165 type.

I should say….I do not work with Zinc.

Bottom line….if the emulsion does not go right together…you will have trouble later on….in stability.  Just my observance.

Your emulsion doesn’t seem to have much in the way of builders….maybe some gum or a fatty alcohol?  C10-18 Triglycerides in the oil phase is also a lot of fun.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Betaine is an inner salt, one side is anionic and the other cationic. Like any acid (especially organic ones), their dissociation (turning from charge neutral to negative) depends on their pKa value and the solutions pH. The change is gradual and leads from an inner salt to a standard salt, not a ‘cationic’ the way you commonly think of. This means that betaine at lower pH behaves like an organic salt and charge antagonising effects are in the range of any other organic salt (= less pronounced than with table salt).

Thank you.  I can now sleep better at night!

[Graillotion]

Annsc said:

I bought 8 oz. from TKB. 

thank you….I also bought some from TKB….and did not care for it nearly as much as the stuff from FSS.  It had A MUCH LOWER MELT POINT.  For the haptics I am trying to achieve, the higher melt point works much better.

Had them both on the table (long term) and the TKB is often 50% solid, and 50% liquid.  The FFS LL is always a dry solid…sitting side by side.

The stuff from LC….seems to be somewhere between those two.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Wellll… 

Yes, at lower pH it becomes cationic and should act somewhat as conditioning agent 

I like it a lot in leave-on skin care products 

Ok…we have snared @Pharma into this conversation.  Now I will spin it into a new direction for my own knowledge gain.  I have long waited for a full extollation (yeah…made up that word) of betaine and its cationic possibilities.  I am more interested in PROTECTING myself from this characteristic, than achieving it.

So, what I know so far:

1) This process begins to happen in the pH range starting with the number 4.

2) Anionic things don’t like to play with things called ‘cationic’.

So, my mentors (one might be Swiss with a lot of dogs )  have most of my formulas in the pH range of 4.8 and 4.2 (product dependent).

So, the questions:

1) When betaine is exposed to a pH that flips the cationic switch….is this all at once… From one state, to another… or more of a gradual/graduated thing?  Meaning the 4.8 pH formula contains a far lower cationic state, than the 4.2 pH formulas cationic state?

2) My Swiss mentor has typically recommended that I include a small amount of anionic emulsifier to fortify my emulsions.  At what point (assume an inclusion rate of either 2 or 3% betaine in any formula) or is there a point… where the cationic conversion of betaine will antagonize the anionic GSC (assume one part to ten of emulsifier)?

Sitting back….waiting to bathe in the glow of your wisdom.  All can participate!  

[Graillotion]

I would also mention…that Opti Plus has a pH sensitive component.  I would make sure your formula falls into that range.

[Graillotion]

I use the good ‘betaine’ in all my moisturizers.  However I am clueless when it comes to hair care.  However….I have seen blurbs that mention betaine becomes cationic with lower pH’s.  So, I suspect…if the pH were low enough…you would be correct.

Question is… would you formulate a shampoo at that pH to get the betaine to perform its trick?  I think @Pharma has enough insight on betaine….to help.  

[Graillotion]

First…. It would be helpful if you would say what country you live in.

Secondly… If you have a specific ingredient in mind… list it.  You never know who is reading this…and also had to buy too much of a certain ingredient…and would love to unload half of it.  I have also found several times… where I could not find an ingredient….but someone on the forum showed me a source that Google was not finding for me.

I try and avoid buying ingredients from China….but sometimes that is the only route.  I have been able to tap into my network of professional friends, and when I have to make that Chinese purchase, I can utilize their due diligence and testing, and buy directly from a vetted vendor/manufacturer.  (Looking at you o-Cymen-5-ol.)

Lastly….I might suggest you build a relationship with your re-packers.  I have had numerous successes here in the US, and almost embarrassed to say how many of the ingredients they carry, that I asked them to carry.  (Ever wonder why FSS started carrying dermosoft® decalact deo MB right around the time I was creating a deodorant?)  They are business people as well, and if you can show them there is a market for a product….well, they will consider carrying it.  Offer to buy half of their MOQ on the first batch.  Life is about relationships.

Hehehe…and when all else fails…. The place in Thailand…..probably has it.  

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

vince said:

PhilGeis said:

To Graillotion’s point

Identification of Didecyldimethylammonium Salts and Salicylic Acid as Antimicrobial Compounds in Commercial Fermented Radish Kimchi

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/jf5063588

Thank you for sharing this article, it’s definitely eye opening and I am glad I asked about the Leucidal “preservative” before formulating more and more products with them. The cloudiness on the sample product I made just didn’t sit well with me and I wanted to know why it happened and if there was a way to get rid of it. However, after reading into it, Id rather move on to a  preservative that actually works… what are your suggestions on preservatives? 

Are there any preservatives that work that don’t release formaldehyde ? 

If you follow this link… Dr Geis did a presentation on preservation.  It is the second one.

Enjoy.

Past Webinar Library? — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

[Graillotion]

Rockstargirl said:

How do companies claim thermal water or water from the Swiss alps and then “made in the USA”? No way they fly millions of gallons of water. Isn’t it all deionized?

If you put a drop in every batch….hmmmn…I’m thinking… Contains Swiss Alps water. 

Did they say…ONLY Swiss Mt water?   You know the routine.

If I go to the super market….and NO PLACE COULD BE FURTHER FROM WHERE I LIVE….than Switerland…. I can easily purchase Swiss Alp drinking water.

Maybe there is a new term in the offing…. ‘Claim water’?

Aloha!

[Graillotion]

vince said:

 but so far, its the preservative i keep hearing is the best option.

You are listening to the wrong voices (leucidal voices).  Find better voices.   There is an idiot born every minute…and they all want to be heard.

I sent you a PM…so find your inbox.  

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

A few questions, please:

-1-   Do you feel desiccants are essential for all dry ingredients (including crowd-pleasers like niacinamide, xanthan gum, and salicylic acid) or just certain categories of ingredients, as outlined above?

-2-  Is there concern that adding a desiccant packet to the actual vessel contributes microbes?  (Or is that overthinking things?)

-3-  Does anyone have recs for small airtight glass containers?  I assume standard spice jars are not going to cut it?

1) No….I have a number of ingredients, that do not draw water to themselves…and do quite well without the desiccants.  Obviously if a dry ingredient is a humectant….well …. do the math.

2)  I think this falls into the category of not sanitizing packaging before you add your product.  You build some of this into properly preserving your products….to take on all comers.  Obviously, most desiccants are going to come from China….so there is SOME concern.

3) I like anything Pyrex….I have a couple of these that I store high end extracts that I make.  (You’ll go broke in a hurry if you need a bunch!)

Pyrex 1399-250CNEa-M Slim line Media Bottle Easy Pour Corning 250ML, Glass: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

[Graillotion]

I live on the wet side of Hawaii…and always have 90+ percent humidity.  I add a desiccant the moment the bag is opened!  Otherwise, it is soon garbage.

Especially important with things like betaine, L-Proline, carbomers, and polymerics.

[Graillotion]

I would say it is improbable that your waxes are damaged with an 87C temp (think candles), however you did not mention which waxes you used.

I think your mag is just in suspension, and also not influenced by those temps.

One could try something like a non-gelling starch (distarch phosphate), even if just as a knockout.  Who knows…maybe you’ll find (like I did) what an awesome starch it is.  Much of the gelling of starch….depends on length of time at temp.  Hence bigger batches will gel worse than smaller batches.  (Otherwise…rice starch has about the highest gel temp of the natural starches.)

If you do have to start over….I’d sure reconsider your clients skin, and eliminate the high pH ingredients.  

[Graillotion]

Guess what color my shirt is.