Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Need help with dog products formulation

  • Need help with dog products formulation

    Posted by vince on November 9, 2022 at 4:40 am

    Hello,
    I want to create my own dog products such as shampoo, conditioner, leave in conditioner, spray (deodorizer) and wipes.
    However, I am having a hard time figuring out what the best ingredients are for a ph thats between 7 & 7.5 since this is supposed to be the ideal PH.

    How can other companies claim to have a ph balanced shampoo for example, when using decyl glucoside? If from what I am seeing in my suppliers website states you need to maintain pH of finished product between 3.0-5.0 .

    I have other surfactants in mind like AOS 40 and caprylyl glucoside, but those are also supposed to be at a lesser ph than 7. 

    Can someone please advise how this works?

    vince replied 1 year, 7 months ago 10 Members · 26 Replies
  • 26 Replies
  • Pharma

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 5:41 am
    We had that discussion before here on board, use the search function ;) .
    Who sais dog skin has a neutral pH and that this is also a healthy pH?
  • Abdullah

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 8:19 am

    You can use any surfactant at pH 7 but as Pharma said: why pH 7?

  • vince

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 4:00 pm

    Hi Pharma,
    I did search for this topic, unfortunately, i did not find anything on my end. Do you have a link for that discussion?

    There are some articles i read on google about dogs having a higher ph than humans, hence needing products with a ph around 7 . Is this information wrong?
    If so, what should the ideal PH be??

    Thank you for your help

  • Syl

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 5:45 pm

    I also read somewhere that the skin mantle of dogs is PH neutral and shampoo should be neutral too. I am concerned about using cationic surfactants ( conditioner agents) since they attach to the fur, pets are self grooming. Cationic surfactants are toxic to aquatic life, therefore they should not be eaten. I have not found a study on this subject.

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 6:17 pm

    @Vince:

    You are correct.  When formulating for dogs you will want to keep the pH between 7.0 and 7.5.  There are numerous studies documenting that the pH of dog skin is more alkaline than human skin and it varies by breed.  Use gentle surfactants as though you were formulating for a human baby and do a final pH adjustment of your concoction to the 7.0-7.5 range.

  • Lab

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 6:48 pm

    Dogs’ skin is often thinner than humans, which makes them relatively more sensitive in many ways. Mark’s suggestion is a very good one, keep a pH closer to neutral and formulate with mild surfactants just like you would for a children’s product.

    Also, avoid fragrances as much as possible (I know there are some hypoallergenic ones on the market, but I’m always afraid to pick the wrong one). Essential oils are a no. As much as there is a certain tolerance in dogs, I consider the risk of reaction to be very high. Fragrance-free is a good appeal if your marketing wants to use this to their advantage (:

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 7:02 pm

    Whatever the pH of dog skin, on what basis is a shampoo rinse off  product with 6-8 pH going to affect it?  What are the data?

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 8:11 pm

    @Lab:

    Yes, you are correct.  Several essential oils are toxic to dogs as are some plant extracts that are not toxic to humans.  Dogs also tend to lick at areas so they can ingest the toxic ingredients that most humans may consider benign.  The ASPCA has a poison control hotline … unfortunately, pet grooming products are not regulated by the FDA and many formulators of pet care products are not aware of these toxicities so you find them in many pet care products.

    Plus, dogs’ sense of smell is so much more sensitive than humans, a scent that may smell good to a human is overwhelming when sprayed on a dog.

  • Lab

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 8:42 pm

    @PhilGeis - If my memory serves me right, dogs don’t have the acid mantle that humans have on their skin, which makes it harder for them to deal with potential pathogens when the pH is altered. Different breeds can have different pHs (a lot varies from dog to dog, not just the breed), so the final pH value can be changed according to needs or kept to an average.

    As I’m not sure and I could be wrong since I’m not a veterinary expert, I can look for some scientific literature that addresses the subject. But I remember a veterinarian specializing in dermatology once telling that infections and skin problems in dogs are a huge area and that many non-specialist veterinarians can be oblivious to canine needs.
    @MarkBroussard - Thanks for emphasizing these points! Really, licking is a concern, as is smell. Other example of carelessness (off cosmetic topic) I’ve heard of was when a pharmacist was developing a dog biscuit and almost used grape seed flour by mistake. This is a (potencial) highly toxic ingredient for dogs, unlike golden flaxseed, coconut and green banana.
  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 9:10 pm

    @Lab

    My experience has been, and I have developed numerous pet care products, that most people who want to formulate pet care products do so from a human’s perspective, not a dog’s perspective.  Particularly with fragrances, they want to choose fragrances that are pleasant to humans without consideration that the dog is the one who has to wear the scent that humans choose for them.  There is also some good research on the scents that dogs tend to like that include coconut, ginger, lavender, blueberry, vanilla among others.  So, many products for pets are over-scented and contain fragrances that may be very unpleasant to the animals.

    Yes, most people are not aware that there are veterinary dermatology specialists.

  • vince

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 9:37 pm

    @Vince:

    You are correct.  When formulating for dogs you will want to keep the pH between 7.0 and 7.5.  There are numerous studies documenting that the pH of dog skin is more alkaline than human skin and it varies by breed.  Use gentle surfactants as though you were formulating for a human baby and do a final pH adjustment of your concoction to the 7.0-7.5 range.

    Thank you for the advise Mark.
    I know you mentioned to use gentle surfactants and i had a couple in mind but the PH rate should be around 3.0 - 5.0 when using, for example, decyl glucoside.

    So do you know of any gentle surfactants that have a higher ph tolerance?

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    November 9, 2022 at 10:06 pm

    @Vince:

    I don’t know where you’re getting the pH 3.0 to 5.0 range for Decyl Glucoside, but I would not put too much stock into that as I don’t think it is accurate.  Sticking with non-ionic APG’s is not a bad idea, but Decyl Glucoside has some contact dermatitis issues, so not really your best choice.  Better to go with Coco Glucoside and an amphoteric if you want a blend … perhaps Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine.

    Most brands use language like “Coconut-Derived Surfactant” … it’s a travesty that this type of labeling is allowed for pet grooming products.

  • Herbnerd

    Member
    November 10, 2022 at 12:03 am

    Other example of carelessness (off cosmetic topic) I’ve heard of was when a pharmacist was developing a dog biscuit and almost used grape seed flour by mistake. This is a (potencial) highly toxic ingredient for dogs, unlike golden flaxseed, coconut and green banana.

    I was developing an oral hydration product for dogs. I was asked to turn the raw data into a nutritional premix to be added to other ingredients to make up the hydration beverage.

    The specifications for the finished product was given by the vets (at the local veterinary school) engaged to develop the nutritional premix.

    One ingredient required was “Potassium (from potassium iodide) 40 mg/serve” (I forget the exact figure now). I had to point out to the vets that 40 mg from potassium iodide was over 129 mg of Iodine - which is pretty toxic at that dose.

    The vet hadn’t considered the iodine portion at all - and left me to determine the best potassium source for myself (along with any other adjustments) that may be required.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    November 10, 2022 at 12:09 am

    This is a rinse off product.  Whatever dog skin pH may be and the literature finds it mild alkaline - how would a pH 5 shampoo affect dog skin?

  • ketchito

    Member
    November 10, 2022 at 12:52 pm

    I believe @PhilGeis point is relevant. When you apply the shampoo in the presence of water, the final pH of the mixture is that of water. Even at low dilution level (like 1:1), water already started raising the pH of the mixture. So it’s very little time that the pH is close to the product’s one (yes, contact time matters).

    To make things worse (or better), the viscosity of the product (assuming you apply the product directly and without any water, which would be odd) prevents direct contact of the product’s ingredients with skin (try putting on your finger few drops of liquid sodium hypochlorite vs few drops of gel sodium hypochlorite…..or better not, hehe). 

    pH alone (as viscosity alone) gives you only part of the story. What’s most important for the skin from a cleanser (besides allergens) is the denaturing potential of your surfactant, which triggers the later immune response, and that’s when the comment of @MarkBroussard about Decyl glucoside is relevant. Although, we have to keep in mind that in the presence of charged polymers and other surfactants, mixed structures are formed and we can no longer have the effect of a particular surfactant as if it was alone. That’s why amphoterics and cationic polymers reduce the irritation potential of anionic surfactants. 

  • vince

    Member
    November 11, 2022 at 7:40 pm

    Thank you all for your input. So say ph isn’t too relevant for shampoo, but what about a leave in conditioner or deodorizing spray for the pup? Wouldn’t it be better to have it ph balanced?

    @MarkBroussard thank you, I will definitely give the surfactants you mentioned a try. I was debating whether I should use decyl glucoside or coco Glucoside but now that you mentioned the downside of decyl glucoside I rather go with coco glucoside. Also, what do you think of using AOS-40 and capryl glucoside? I already have those in my inventory. Would these be too harsh for dogs?

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    November 11, 2022 at 8:24 pm

    @vince

    Yes, if you have AOS-40 and Cap Glucoside, give them a try.  They should work just fine. 

    I would not discount the impact of pH in either rinse-off and leave-on products … the less you disrupt the skin barrier, the better.  It is easy enough to adjust the pH of a concoction to 7.0 to 7.5.

  • vince

    Member
    November 11, 2022 at 8:29 pm

    Cool, thank you @MarkBroussard 

    I definitely want to keep the products at a 7.0 to 7.5 ph range. On another topic related to my formulating…. What preservative do you recommend I use? I wanted to use Leucidal sf max with amticide coconut as i had researched and they are supposed to be good natural preservatives, however, i was told in a separate thread they pretty much are not good preservatives. I am trying to avoid formaldehyde releasers so i want to avoid germall + but so far, its the preservative i keep hearing is the best option.

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    November 11, 2022 at 9:31 pm

    @vince:

    You can use Leucidal SF Max and Amticide Coconut for label appeal, but they are quite unreliable as preservatives.  I have experienced a 50% failure rate when clients want to use these as preservatives.  So, if you go that direction, you can supplement with Sodium Benzoate + Phenoxyethanol (and) Ethylhexylglycerin.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    November 12, 2022 at 2:14 am

    vince said:

     but so far, its the preservative i keep hearing is the best option.

    You are listening to the wrong voices (leucidal voices).  Find better voices. :)  There is an idiot born every minute…and they all want to be heard.

    I sent you a PM…so find your inbox. :) 

  • vince

    Member
    November 15, 2022 at 2:42 am

    @MarkBroussard

    Considering there’s a 50% failure rate for leuicidal products I’d rather not use it at all. 
    I actually have another preservative in mind, euxyl Pe 9010 which is made up of 
    • Phenoxyethanol          90.0%
    • Ethylhexylglycerin     10.0%
    Can I use that combination alone or do I still need to add sodium benzoate?
  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    November 15, 2022 at 3:14 am

    @vince:

    Yes, you will need a co-preservative (Sodium Benzoate) to address fungi, yeast & mold to complement the PE9010.  

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    November 15, 2022 at 12:18 pm

    Na benzoate and EDTA with 9010 a good idea - but need to drop pH.

  • vince

    Member
    November 16, 2022 at 4:36 pm
     thank you Mark, I appreciate it

    @PhilGeis would I be able to drop it down to 6 or 6.5, or is that still too high?

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    November 16, 2022 at 4:44 pm

    @vince
    For shampoo but too high for others.   

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