Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
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@Heath0o7 I could see your reply in my e-mail…but cannot see it on the forum? I send you a message…answering most of your questions. This forum….has a message box… so look for that…and you will find my responses.
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How do you propose to cover gram negative with those preservatives?
Ultra….will cause pH drifting down.
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@PhilGeis the INCI’s are as follows:
Geogard ECT = Benzyl Alcohol (and) Salicylic Acid (and) Glycerin (and) Sorbic Acid
Euxyl™ k 712 = Sodium Benzoate (and) Potassium Sorbate (and) Aqua
PE 9010 = Phenoxy + EHG
As I am guessing you will mention the weakness on Gram Negative on the first two…and sensitivity to pH…. What would you recommend as a patch…. to cover the gram - on them?
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Dr @PhilGeis On the PE 9010 …. what would your patch to cover YMF with? Chlorphenesin? Other good options?
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Same place we get everything else. ????
Polyglyceryl-3 Methylglucose Distearate (myskinrecipes.com)
Couple-ah nuances with ordering from Thailand…. fist 500 grams ships for all the same price. There is no free shipping…unless you live in Thailand. They ship DHL…should have it in 5 business days.
Aloha.
myskinrecipes.com
Polyglyceryl-3 Methylglucose Distearate
Mulse Cream Maker (Polyglyceryl-3 Methylglucose Distearate) is an oil-in-water that is plant sourced and PEG-free.
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Maybe I should add….there aren’t many secrets in the world. If something works….everyone already knows about it. ???? That being said…..when I got to the bottom of the deo well….I was surprised to find how many stones were yet to be turned over? Maybe it takes too much work….to do that much digging on the commercial level? Or more likely….it is all about being just good enough…and creating mfg efficiencies. ????
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I guess I always assumed…if I was reading marketing material….I was already neck deep in Bu!!$i+. I guess I tend to do things backasswards…. I read research first….and then look for a product that is being sold, similar to the researched ingredient. Call me crazy…I know.
Um….formulas from vendors….those are designed to showcase/feature an ingredient. If the person/intern that wrote those formulas had any skill…they’d be working for a company that made end user products (for 3X the pay)!
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You aren’t missing much beyond how clueless some of the people who formulate are. 🙂
I have had this very discussion privately with some of the brilliant….and we concluded….I believe correctly, these folks simply looked around the industry and saw the heavy use of TEC on inci’s, and concluded they should use it as well. As I have difficulty concluding the group that makes high pH deo products have much understanding of skin or science…. I think this is quite plausible. Call it what you like…label envy…copy cat…etc.
I guess for me…. I could not find ANY product on the market that was acceptable, so when I jumped in….inci admiration had no value….and I went straight to the science.
So yes, I use TEC, but in a pH below 4. (Emulsified cream….due to the stick builders being irritants to me.)
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As someone who has been mentored by two of the most brilliant people to have graced this forum, for many years, I can only express the extreme gratitude for the gift those mentors have given me. I can also say, mentoring is no small undertaking…..as both of these brilliant men took thousands of hours of their time, to invest in me. Why? I can never guess, beyond their extreme generosity. I now consider them, two of my closest friends.
I did not get to choose my mentors. My mentors chose me. The Master chooses the grasshopper.
Neither of my mentors currently frequent the forum. 🙁
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I just checked my e-mails from my lead mentor….. There are 5,568 lengthy e-mails between the grasshopper and the Master. He was what I would describe as the PhD amongst the PhD’s. How lucky am I. Many of those early e-mails went way over my head…but over the years I was able to grasp all the concepts….even if they took a while to soak in. (I always wanted him to call me grasshopper…but usually he called me ‘dumbass’.) ???? I read them at some level almost every day, as G-mail has some really nice search options…which allow me to find past conversations on topics of current interest.
The first mentor, his PhD focused on pharmacognosy (the branch of knowledge concerned with medicinal drugs obtained from plants or other natural sources), and phytochemistry (the branch of chemistry concerned with plants and plant products). This allowed me to work towards natural aspects without falling for mommy blogger lore, and the host of fake ingredients with no efficacy.
The second Mentor was the perfect balancing bifecta…. a chemist plus a dermatologist. This allowed practical chemistry to be applied to skincare. I was truly blessed. This chemist….has at least as many conversations, but the format is different….so I don’t know how to count his conversations.
Good Luck.
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Let me just reiterate what Microformulation mentioned, the search bar is a valuable tool. Much can be learned with the search bar. As with any forum, not all contributors have the same value, so some discretion is required.
I’ll be the first to say….I have searched and read EVERY SINGLE comment EVER made, by several of the contributors. If searching preservation….of course search for Dr Geis’s comments. Want amazing industry hacks… and experience….hard to beat Chemical Matt…..so on and so forth.
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Ahhhh….the classic “Broad Spectrum”….
Actually …. have you ever seen a product that was not advertised as ‘Broad Spectrum’? Answer is NO…in case you are pondering.
Like much of cosmetic preservation….there was no system….so they looked across the fence at the medical system…and borrowed bits and pieces.
So to a beginner (I work with them extensively), the term means…. ‘It covers what needs to be covered, to make safe cosmetics’. In reality….nothing could be further from the truth!!! In the medical field….example drugs….you have targeted products…that hopefully kill a single or very focused thing. The other end of the spectrum is broad spectrum, where something may kill multiple pathogens….or at least more than one.
So, the people selling something titled ‘broad spectrum’ are not lying….as their product more than likely kills more than one thing….and it might even be….just multiple strains of gram +…etc…etc….. Start to see the picture? They are not lying…calling their product a broad spectrum, if it controls two or more things. Problem with that….is in cosmetics….we need a lot of things killed/ controlled.
Don’t even get me started on the borrowed concept of MIC….where inhibition is pedaled as protection. As one of my favorite PhD’s likes to say…. “Things that survive….learn to thrive!” (That may or may not be a Dr Geisism.) So on the medicine side…. if we can inhibit something…..the immune system…even possibly a compromised immune system, can generally finish it off. In cosmetics….we really don’t have an immune system to come along…and finish things off. We need KILL.
So all boils down to a very vague term….that is utilized to manipulate those that don’t know how the term is being used. Bottom Line: Broad spectrum is essentially a meaningless combination of two words. The onus is on you…to confirm if those ingredients meet the criteria…of killing G + , G -, YMF.
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@Heath0o7 as Dr Geis is sometimes a minimalist with words….and not that I have his intellect… but let me fill in a few words for you. So Phenoxy is good on the bacteria set…and weak on the YMF. So what he has done….is paired two together…which covers each others weaknesses. The First will get your YMF…and latter will make sure your HUGE concern with gram negative bacteria is covered.
As I work with beginners…. Here is how I explain what they need in a preservative You need to find a piece of your preservative as you ask these questions…that will unequivocally address each category.
1) Do I confidently kill Gram Positive bacteria? If so….who does this job, and at what pH?
2) Do I confidently kill Gram Negative bacteria? If so… who does this job, and at what pH?
3) Do I prevent Yeast, Mold and Fungi…. If so….who does this job, and at what pH?
Now the tough part is…. You CANNOT use ANY mommy blogger sites….and you CANNOT use ANY marketing material. You need to find scientific reference tools….that confirm these activities.
Good Luck ????
(OR …. You can ask Dr Geis. Always helps to ask the guy….that wrote the book. 🙂 )
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@PhilGeis could it be….’safe’ is being used for the space the gram negatives live? Where they could comfortably “be fruitful and multiplying”? ????
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Oh…I see there are more listed:
Geo 221 = Dehydroacetic Acid (and) Benzyl Alcohol
Verstatil® TBO = Triethyl Citrate (and) Caprylyl Glycol (and) Benzoic Acid
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As a formulator….rare is the day I make a formula larger than 150 grams. 🙂 (And yes, I use my minipro on them all.)
I think you need to study emulsion science a little more…before you decide on what equipment is best for you. I think…. you will discover that particle size is hyper critical…especially on micelle type emulsions. You can make certain kinds of formulas with a fork and whisk ????…. but I wouldn’t sell them.
There is a free course that this site, and partner sites offer, and you might consider taking ….before parting with your coin. 🙂
Note: The stirrer should stir out any bubbles….you insert during shear. It is very difficult to not have bubbles in your product during small scale production. Stirring….should eliminate them. 🙂
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I have attached the basic fundamental steps of creating an emulsion. I think most beginners do not realize there are two very distinct steps.
Step 3…. Would be done with the Dynamic Mini Pro….or very crudely done with a kitchen stick blender.
Step 4…. Would be done with an overhead stirrer.
Both steps are required to make excellent products. So, realistically….if you want to sell good products, you will need to invest in 2 pieces of equipment. You can purchase very inexpensive overhead stirrers….for small batches….for less than $100.
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Misceo and Dynamic (MiniPro) are the same company….I believe they only distinguish based on power supplied in your country.
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You do not list the glycerin that is part of a triglyceride….separately.
In this case…you just list the CCT (spelled out), and you are good.
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Natural oils for the most part of primarily composed of triglycerides, with the odd-ball exception of Jojoba…which is actually a liquid wax, and not technically a natural oil by definition.
So as Perry said…. the place on the glycerol molecule that would link with water….is occupied with a fatty acid….and cannot do both at the same time. (Bond to the fatty acid…and bond with water.)
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The D Minipro with the emulsifying head….can only serve as creating shear. It cannot functionally stir.
A typical emulsion is first sheared….then stirred to cool down. Since the MiniPro cannot run for extended amounts of time….in cannot take the place of an overhead stirrer. Also… as an emulsion starts to form, especially the lamellar types….we don’t want a steady dose of shear. Some up front….and a kiss at finish is typically sufficient.
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Sounds like your client…might have read one of the blurbs I recently wrote on a forum. I was shoveling $hi+ on a group that was disparaging glycerin…..so I explained to them what a triglyceride was…in hopes of destroying their day, week, month, life. ????
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the word ‘triglyceride’ ….the part of the word ‘glyceride’…tells you the glycerin (backbone) is still there.
So, if you have listed CCT on the inci….you have disclosed what is needed. If you don’t want the glycerol backbone…try some CCC or Jojoba.
We do not list on the inci…down to the molecular level. 🙂 In this day and age…we are even lucky if they list the actual preservative. ????
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Clearly there are concerns with defaming a company in a public space.
Maybe this approach will work: List your country and the specific type of ingredient you are looking for….and ask for a recommendation.
Hehehe….if you do that on a beginner forum…you can find the worst vendors…by counting the votes. The vendor listed most often…is typically the worst. ????