Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
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Aloha…
First… ROE and Vit E….are not preservatives AT ALL (that is just mommy blogger lore that has refused to die….decade after decade). Sometimes as antioxidants, they are said to ‘preserve’ oils….or keep them from going rancid. So, you have to watch the lingo in cosmetics. Secondly….they would not be redundant with phenoxy…since they do not do anything in common with the latter. However…they might be redundant with each other…. albeit I use both…in all formulas that contain natural oils.
A little hard to answer your question….without knowing….is there ANY water at all in your product?
If you can clarify that….you can get better answers. ????
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If you are asking…is this a real thing…. YES.
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@Heath0o7 I could see your reply in my e-mail…but cannot see it on the forum? I send you a message…answering most of your questions. This forum….has a message box… so look for that…and you will find my responses.
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How do you propose to cover gram negative with those preservatives?
Ultra….will cause pH drifting down.
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@PhilGeis the INCI’s are as follows:
Geogard ECT = Benzyl Alcohol (and) Salicylic Acid (and) Glycerin (and) Sorbic Acid
Euxyl™ k 712 = Sodium Benzoate (and) Potassium Sorbate (and) Aqua
PE 9010 = Phenoxy + EHG
As I am guessing you will mention the weakness on Gram Negative on the first two…and sensitivity to pH…. What would you recommend as a patch…. to cover the gram - on them?
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Dr @PhilGeis On the PE 9010 …. what would your patch to cover YMF with? Chlorphenesin? Other good options?
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LG+ stands for Liquid Germall Plus
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LG+ stands for Liquid germal plus.
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LG+ stands for : liquid germall™ plus. aka: <b style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; color: var(-bb-body-text-color);”>Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate (and) Propylene Glycol
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Not sure how they will compare in price…but at least they are reputable….
They also carry several versions of the PVP/VA Copolymer
Ceteareth-25, Creamophor A25 (myskinrecipes.com)
myskinrecipes.com
water-oil binder It is designed to focus on the work of creating thickening formulas. Acts like a gel-maker, creating a gel texture.
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Sorry hehehhe….we might be quite conditioned….to think every newbie is chasing the magical pipe dream….of fresh squeezed herb = stellar preservative. ????
So here is what you have:
Phenoxy…strong on Gram -
Benz … good on Gram + ….especially around pH of 5
EHG …. penetration enhancer.
What do you don’t have….is strong YMF….yet. So first of all…you have done more than most….not saying rest on your laurels….but I think you can cover YMF….with one add-on…vs two.
However…if you want your pH as high as 6…. might as well just jump over to LG+ ?
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I was looking more at the aspect….of the human. ????
Would you want it on your skin? (hydroxamates)
Fekher…. the additiion of piroctone olamine should pick up dandruff nicely. ????
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…… As you should know…there is no definition of ‘natural’ in cosmetics….not by omission….but by intent.
So …. NATURAL… is pretty much whatever you can persuade (or purchase for a large fee) someone to believe is natural. ????
Hence, I consider there to be NO natural preservatives…..only lab produced chemicals. Not to say there is not a whole fake industry….whom for a hefty bribe will not certify your lab produced chemical as…. ‘Natural’. ????
If the natural folks ….. were true to form…they would stick with parabens…and especially formaldehyde…as I consider it the most natural of all the preservatives. But……… since it is all agenda and politics….anything goes. ????
However….once you grasp that they are all lab produced chemicals….it makes formulation much easier….because you focus on what works, and what is SAFE, …. vs someone else’s agenda!!!
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Caprylyl Glycol and EHG are somewhat interchangeable ‘penetration enhancers’. These are the part of the preservative, that allows the germ ‘killer’ to enter (penetrate cell membrane) the pathogen.
If you study hurdle technology….you will usually see ingredients (often glycols) that enhance penetration of the preservative. It creates a synergy….or makes the actual preservative….work better.
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ULP just went through a ‘Password’ upgrade. Forced all users to upgrade their password. I think if you’ll go through the steps of resetting your password,….and meeting the newer criteria….you will be back in. I know I had to add a special symbol….to my password….before I could access my account.
Good Luck.
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Just curious @PhilGeis your thoughts on hydroxamates in cosmetic preservatives? I know our good friend Pharma….could not string enough swear words together in English…to really show his utter displeasure for them… ???? (He always teased me, that I struggled with English as my first language, and as his fifth language, he was much more adept.)
He wrote me a lengthy blurb once…. that disparaged me for life…from using them.
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” Start with the assumption - suppliers are liars. Not quite right as claims are made by marketing folks who conveniently know nothing but claim everything.”
Ok, @PhilGeis that is one awesome ‘Geisism’…..and going into my collection. 🙂
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If you are asking how I look them up? I use material like those posted below. I also use the search bar…..and I have two world class mentors. Between those 4…I can get any information I need.
Oh…and of course….NO MARKETING MATERIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVER…………
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Ahhhh….the classic “Broad Spectrum”….
Actually …. have you ever seen a product that was not advertised as ‘Broad Spectrum’? Answer is NO…in case you are pondering.
Like much of cosmetic preservation….there was no system….so they looked across the fence at the medical system…and borrowed bits and pieces.
So to a beginner (I work with them extensively), the term means…. ‘It covers what needs to be covered, to make safe cosmetics’. In reality….nothing could be further from the truth!!! In the medical field….example drugs….you have targeted products…that hopefully kill a single or very focused thing. The other end of the spectrum is broad spectrum, where something may kill multiple pathogens….or at least more than one.
So, the people selling something titled ‘broad spectrum’ are not lying….as their product more than likely kills more than one thing….and it might even be….just multiple strains of gram +…etc…etc….. Start to see the picture? They are not lying…calling their product a broad spectrum, if it controls two or more things. Problem with that….is in cosmetics….we need a lot of things killed/ controlled.
Don’t even get me started on the borrowed concept of MIC….where inhibition is pedaled as protection. As one of my favorite PhD’s likes to say…. “Things that survive….learn to thrive!” (That may or may not be a Dr Geisism.) So on the medicine side…. if we can inhibit something…..the immune system…even possibly a compromised immune system, can generally finish it off. In cosmetics….we really don’t have an immune system to come along…and finish things off. We need KILL.
So all boils down to a very vague term….that is utilized to manipulate those that don’t know how the term is being used. Bottom Line: Broad spectrum is essentially a meaningless combination of two words. The onus is on you…to confirm if those ingredients meet the criteria…of killing G + , G -, YMF.
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@Heath0o7 as Dr Geis is sometimes a minimalist with words….and not that I have his intellect… but let me fill in a few words for you. So Phenoxy is good on the bacteria set…and weak on the YMF. So what he has done….is paired two together…which covers each others weaknesses. The First will get your YMF…and latter will make sure your HUGE concern with gram negative bacteria is covered.
As I work with beginners…. Here is how I explain what they need in a preservative You need to find a piece of your preservative as you ask these questions…that will unequivocally address each category.
1) Do I confidently kill Gram Positive bacteria? If so….who does this job, and at what pH?
2) Do I confidently kill Gram Negative bacteria? If so… who does this job, and at what pH?
3) Do I prevent Yeast, Mold and Fungi…. If so….who does this job, and at what pH?
Now the tough part is…. You CANNOT use ANY mommy blogger sites….and you CANNOT use ANY marketing material. You need to find scientific reference tools….that confirm these activities.
Good Luck ????
(OR …. You can ask Dr Geis. Always helps to ask the guy….that wrote the book. 🙂 )
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@PhilGeis could it be….’safe’ is being used for the space the gram negatives live? Where they could comfortably “be fruitful and multiplying”? ????
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Oh…I see there are more listed:
Geo 221 = Dehydroacetic Acid (and) Benzyl Alcohol
Verstatil® TBO = Triethyl Citrate (and) Caprylyl Glycol (and) Benzoic Acid
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As a formulator….rare is the day I make a formula larger than 150 grams. 🙂 (And yes, I use my minipro on them all.)
I think you need to study emulsion science a little more…before you decide on what equipment is best for you. I think…. you will discover that particle size is hyper critical…especially on micelle type emulsions. You can make certain kinds of formulas with a fork and whisk ????…. but I wouldn’t sell them.
There is a free course that this site, and partner sites offer, and you might consider taking ….before parting with your coin. 🙂
Note: The stirrer should stir out any bubbles….you insert during shear. It is very difficult to not have bubbles in your product during small scale production. Stirring….should eliminate them. 🙂
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I have attached the basic fundamental steps of creating an emulsion. I think most beginners do not realize there are two very distinct steps.
Step 3…. Would be done with the Dynamic Mini Pro….or very crudely done with a kitchen stick blender.
Step 4…. Would be done with an overhead stirrer.
Both steps are required to make excellent products. So, realistically….if you want to sell good products, you will need to invest in 2 pieces of equipment. You can purchase very inexpensive overhead stirrers….for small batches….for less than $100.