[ggpetrov]

Graillotion said:

ggpetrov, I had looked at O 1000, many times….but always heard such negative comments about the soaping.  I am not familiar with adding the emulsifier into the water phase….is O 1000 water soluble? 

You can put Olivem into the water phase without any problems. It’s not water soluble, but it can emulsifies perfectly it this situation. If you look at the manufacturer of Olivem 1000 - Hallstar, they suggest two options for this emulsifier - you can put it into the fat or water phase. You can even make an “oil free” creme gel with 5% Olivem 1000 and only water. Just keep in mind that the structure of the emulsion will be different. I mean if you put Olivem into the water phase, the final emulsion will have a bit lower viscosity, compared to that made with Olivem into the fat phase. You can moderate the viscosity by adding more fat alcohols or butters. Also the emulsions made with Olivem into the water phase are more light and fast absorbing than standart ones.

[ggpetrov]

If you put Olivem 1000 in the water phase, you can moderate the soaping effect. I always use the Olivem in the water phase and I have never noticed any soaping effect.

[ggpetrov]

I have all the three - Cetyl, Cetostearyl and Behenyl. It’s true, I rarely use the Cetostearyl, so I can’t share any thoughts about it. In my lotions I use primarily Behenyl, but to be quite honest I can’t find any difference between Behenyl and Cetyl. In my point of view, the overall feeling of the emulsion is dependent of all of the components, and the way the emulsion is made.

Recently I use (thanks to ngarayeva001) a liquid crystal promoter, co-emulsifier and thickener called Oliwax LC (Hallstar). It’s quite moisturising, and allows to decrease the level of main emulsifier. One of the ingredients of Oliwax LC is Cetyl Palmitate - a simple ester, with realy dry feeling, but it softens the skin extremely. I mean it really softens the skin almost like the polyquads. I use Myristyl Myristate either, but can’t say that it has “powdery feeling”. It’s all depends of the overall formula.

[ggpetrov]

It’s funny, but i’ve read about the potential danger of using a GS SE at one of the russian DIY forums. Even more, some people there say that the cationic emulsifiers and those with high HLB are dangerous for use in products that stay on the skin. I’ve searched a lot for an information that proves that, but didn’t find anything. From my personal experience, which isn’t so big, the GS SE is one of my favourite emulsfiers and co emulsifiers. My skin looks great, feels great, and there’s no sign of irritation at all. To be honest i am using this emulsifier as co emulsifier and thickener mainly, and every time I am not dissapointed.

The last time I was using it, was in a lotion made with Bergamuls as a primary emulsifier and GS SE as secondary. Also i’ve tried it in combinations  with Sucrose stearate, Emulprot and Cetearyl Glucoside.

[ggpetrov]

Hi ngarayeva00, actually I understand the Russian language perfectly. I visit some Russian and Ukrainian DIY forums, but I am not quite satisfied. There’s a lot of opinions there, but mostly false or just a talking without a meaning at all. It’s very interesting, but I have the impression that most of the russian homecrafters, buy incredients from a french site called Aroma Zone.

Anyway, I’ve checked the site you’ve mentioned, and must to say that it’s impressive. I am curious how do you make a purchase there, I mean which way of delivery you choose, and for example how much do you pay for delivery?

[ggpetrov]

Hi ngarayeva001, and thanks for the answers. I am replying a bit late, but I wanted to test the ingredients before to give my feedback. Recently I have purchased some ingredients from Gracefruit, including that Dimethicone 1000 and Cyclomethicone. Also I have purchased Inulin for the first time. I’ve checked that site Glamour cosmetic, and yeah you are right, there’s a lot of ingredients, but also the shipping price is brutal. The cost to my country Bulgaria, is about 19 euro, which is too much for me at the moment.

Anyway, recently I am having a great success with my formulas. An ingredients that have been difficult for me, now I can cope easily with them. In my last face moisturizer I’ve tried to add the silicones i’ve bought recently. Below I will post my formula, and I hope you can leave your comment about it.

Water - 68.5%

Glicerine - 3%

Sorbitol - 3%

Allantoin - 0.5%

Inulin (Inutec) - 3%

PolyAquol 2W (Polyglyceryl-2 Stearate (and) Glyceryl Stearate (and) Stearyl Alcohol) - 2.5%

Niacin - 2%

In this lotion I’ve put the emulsifier at the water phase

Behenyl alcohol - 2%

Cetyl Palmitate - 2%

Myristyl Myristate - 1%

Caprillic / Capric triglyceride - 2%

Gosulin IL ( Isoamyl Laurate, Isoamyl Cocoate) - 3%

Dimethicone 1000 - 2% at the hot oil phase

Cool down phase :

Sodium Lactate - 1.5%

Sodium PCA - 1.5%

Phenoxyethanol & ethylhexylglycerin - 1%

Cyclomethicone - 2%

Natural PO - Alges Marine from Alexmo cosmetic.

Now the impression. The texture of the lotion is fine, with medium viscosity, but compact not fluffy. The slip and glide of the lotion are amazing. Even a small amount of the lotion covers a big area of the skin. Though  the lotion absorbs immediately, the skin is moist end ellastic. There is a kind of velvety effect over the skin, but not greasy and shiny.

I’ve noticed a problem. If the lotion touch the eyes, there’s a kind of irritation which is inconvenient. It’s not a pain, but I am wondering why is that irritation. I guess it’s related with the silicones, or not?

[ggpetrov]

I am not a pro, but I do experiments at home for fun, and I have had a similar problems. It seems that most of the emulsifiers are electrolyte intolerant. I’ve sent a lot of expensive ingredients at the bin, because of that! Recently I have found a new emulsifier for me called PolyAquol-2W. It is fantastic by the way. It can create emulsion with only 5% oils, or even without any oils - just a water. I made for myself two lotions with 5% esters, and they were fantastic. Also my lotions contained Sodium PCA and Sodium Lactate + Pentilene glycol, and there wasn’t separation at all. So you could try it.

[ggpetrov]

Hi again, I have tried to make the lotion again on my own risk, but I have changed the formula.

I added 3% Montanov 202 and removed the Olive squalane.

Also I divided the lotion in two beakers, one for basic lotion and another to test the reaction with humectants. I added the Pentilene glycol and Sodium PCA one by one, and I noticed that nothing happened. I haven’t used Sodum lactate! The lotion is pretty good actually, quite thick but not greasy, and has a great matteing effect.

To be honnest, it rubs a bit over my skin. I noticed that effect when I use GSC and I didn’t know why. But here at the forum I read that this emulsifier is sensitive to Allantoin at the hot water phase. So I am planning to make another lotion without Allantoin, and see what will happen.

[ggpetrov]

Gunther said:

May I ask what’s the purpose of adding pentylene glycol?
BTMS-50 contains butylene glycol, so maybe you don’t need any pentylene glycol?

Hi Gunther, actually I am like a child in a candy shop, in the world of cosmetics. I just experimenting with the different ingredients, to see what will happen. You are right about the butylene glycol. BTSM 50 also contains Cetyl alcohol, but in most formulas they add additional amount of Cetyl alcohol to bring a certain effect. So I decided to add some Butylene glycol in my lotion, to boost the moisturizing effect.

It is very interesting, but my colegues told me that my face skin is like a baby skin. I am 39 years old and they can’t believe that, looking at my face. Of Course that’s a question of genetics, but I am taking care for my face and body skin.

[ggpetrov]

JonahRay said:

@ggpetrov Regarding Pentylene Glycol, it can be derived from the petroleum industry or from vegetables. The difference really lies in how your product is marketed - whether its a ‘green’ formulation for instance. The price difference is probably both due to the expense of production of a naturally sourced pentylene glycol and because it has added marketing value for some. If you don’t care about the source of this ingredient, it shouldn’t matter.

Hi JonahRay, and thanks for the answer. Actually I don’t care for these “green” concepts, since the ingredients are the same thing. My point of interest actually was focused for the difference between the “organic” and sinthetic Pentylene glycol. I guess they are the same thing (purely chemicaly) and the rest is only marketing for more money.

[ggpetrov]

chemicalmatt said:

Behenyl quat emulsifiers such as BTMS are very mild on the skin, have low irritation indices, and get overlooked in skin-care all the time. I see no worries.  Happy formulating, dude.

Thanks :blush:

[ggpetrov]

I
have read something about this in Susan’s swiftcraftymonkey blog. In
one of her posts she mentioned that „Studies have shown that
conventional emulsifiers could cause irritation to our skin by
disrupting the skin’s lipid barrier, while the liquid crystal
emulsions mimic the lipid bilayers in our stratum corneum,  which
means more actives or lipids from the lotions could penetrate into
our skin. Studies have also shown there is a reduction in
transepidermal water loss when using a liquid crystal emulsifier and
an increase in moisturization of our skin as the lotions hold more
water in contact with the skin for a longer period of time“

And
also “As
a note, take
a look at this paper. The author notes “the efficacy of liquid
crystal emulsions deep in the skin is a matter of reasonable
theorizing substantiated with little or no clinical data.” In
this paper, the author notes that “it is hoped that the
emulsion components will interact with the natural lipids of the
skin”. So it sounds like it hasn’t been proven that it can
deliver actives better to the skin?” 

Many
of her new recipes are designed with Simulgreen or Olivem. I have
tried both, but I can’t achieve this powdery effect wich BTMS-50
gives. I also tried Montanov 202 as it is promoted like emulsifier
that gives matte effect, but I couldn’t get a stable emulsion. After
few day it separates. I have tried everything - increased the ammount
of emulsifier, added fatty alcochol, processed with high shear
blender and so on … but it has separated anyway.

Ofcourse
I use preservative in my lotions. Below I will post my formula, but
it’s nothing special though

In
the oil phase :

• BTMS-50
  / 4%

• Behenyl
  alcochol / 2%

• Caprylic
  Capric Triglycerides / 3%

• Prunus
  armeniaca kernel oil / 4%

• Isoamyl
  Laurate / 3%

In
the water phase :

• Allantoin
  / 0,5%

• Vegetable
  glycerin / 3%

• Glycine
  betaine / 2%

• Niacine
  / 3%

Additives

• D
  Panthenol / 2%

• Sodium
  PCA / 2%

• Silk
  protein peptides / 2%

• Vitamin
  A Palmytate / 0,5%

• Vitamin
  E ( mixed tocopherols) / 0,5%

• Preservative
  ( Pottassium sorbate, Sodium benzoate, Benzyl alcochol) / 2%