[Eugene]

vitalys said:

@Eugene Mmmmm Saperavi sounds like magic to me I bet you are based in Georgia, aren’t you? Your idea is doomed to the commercial success! Wine and its waste materials are a great source for the variety of cosmetic products. I used to work for the very similar concept 10 years ago and the commercial results were so impressive from both marketing and commercial standpoints. Every sort of wine has its own benefits, which can be used for varieties of cosmetic products from a light cream to the scrub or even the special types of skin care. 

I am actually based in Georgia, Tbilisi Happy to here that you know our wine and are familiar to wine skincare. Haven’t heard about wine waste materials in cosmetics, what do you mean? 
Idea came to me after we saw that our Saperavi soap had a great success. We also use grape seed oil in some projects.
God, we have so many species of wine, so Saperavi is just a beginning)))

[Eugene]

Graillotion said:

Fermented grape extract….nice ring to it.  Guess you cannot advertise a Sulfite free formula.   

I always found a little alcohol…makes a nice addition… a little like adding D5.

Guessing you might have some of the same concerns as adding something like green tea, and phenols, so you might need to take some additional actions beyond the sulfites already included.  But not my area of expertise.  Maybe @Pharma will chime back in.

Aloha.

 

I don’t need sulfite free formula😁  So as I understand there is no problem with wine, but I will need good preservation , right? 

Pharma said:

Graillotion said:

…Maybe @Pharma will chime back in…

For a bottle of good wine, I might

No, problem at all! Bottle of our traditional family Saperavi wine will be waiting for you )))

So won’t wine spoil my emulsion or other products?

[Eugene]

Pharma said:

Why do you need the alcohol gone?

Actually, I don’t need. I just thought that it would be easier without it. But if its ok, I don’t mind. 

[Eugene]

Formulator said:

My first guess would be 3% allantoin, it’s probably present as undissolved crystals in your cream. Try reducing it to 0.3%.

It is fully dissolved and I can’t feel any crystals at all🤔 I thought that allantoin was soothing ingredient, so why it should cause tingling?

Perry said:

It could also be the Benzyl Alcohol in the Geogard causing the reaction.

It was the first thing I thought about, so I’ve changed preservative to Geogard Ultra, but tingling was the same…

Mondonna said:

What is the final PH of your product? 

Below 5.5

Graillotion said:

Allantoin is 6X too high…but doubt it would cause the tingling…just be abrasive since that much won’t dissolve. 

There are really no crystals, emulsion is very smooth and pleasant…
I will try to reduce both allantoin and EO, I have already changed preservative to Geogard Ultra. 

My apologies for being late, I hade problems with signing in. Thank you all guys for such an interesting discussion!

[Eugene]

Abdullah said:

What is the pH? 
This preservative may not be very effective at pH above 5 and with hydrosol. It wasn’t for me.

PH is 5.5. I’ve tested the emulsion after 1 year being in hot weather and there was no bacterial growth…

Abdullah said:

Maybe it is 1% essential oil. Try 0.2% and see how it feels.

Agree with @Formulator

evchem2 said:

Seconding the 1% Orange EO- I’d go even further and say knock it out completely first and see if you still feel tingling.

I will try thank you…I have same % in other emulsion with no tingling sensations so I thought it could not be EO…

[Eugene]

PhilGeis said:

“Natural” is as meaningless/false as many such claimed combinations are “broad spectrum”.   Geogard ultra is prob on eof the worst.  Please forget it.

Organic acid(s)/Benzyl alcohol/Chelator at your pH may work.  Benzyl should be 5000+ppm plus.    Run a PET and stability.

Thank you very much.
Benzyl alcohol has such a strong scent… It changes product scent a lot.
I was using Preservative Eco, and it is very smelly ((

[Eugene]

Abdullah said:

Eugene said:

Abdullah said:

You didn’t say what is your pH.

Oh right! It is between 5-5.4

PhilGeis said:

Eugene said:

Hello! I buy ready to use preservative mix (sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate) on naturallythinking.com. I would like to make the mix by myself. Can you please suggest right percentage of water/benzoate/sorbate ?
Thank you!

If that’s all (and two organic acids - neither of which is likely natural) is  prob unnecessary duplication.  In any case, it’s a very poor system.  Suggest ~3000 ppm of either with pH adjusted appropriately and something to impact Gram neg bacteria.

I try formulate organic. So I’m constantly in search for “natural” broad spectrum preservatives. In facial formulations  use geogard ultra, in anhydrous - Geogard ETC. I dot’t like using ETC in lotions because it changes final scent of product. May be it will be better to use Geogard Ultra instead of sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate? I also use Sodium Phytate in every hydrous formulation.
Thank you!

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

If you ask for the compositional analysis perhaps you can get exact percentages, but typical usage rates are 0.3% Sodium Benzoate + 0.15% Potassium Sorbate, each of which you can add as powders directly to the water phase of your formula … no need to make a separate blend in water unless you want to.

Thank you very much! Do you think it is enough broad preservative for emultion formulation with ~5.3PH?
Or may be Geogard Ultra is more powerful?
Thank you!

Both preservatives are pH dependent and both will not work good enough at pH 5.3.

As a general rule, if your product pH is above PKa of an organic acid, don’t use that organic acid as main preservative. They may work as helper preservative.

Why don’t you work at pH below 5?

Also if your product is cationic organic acids may not be compatible with it. 

I use ECOmulse as emulsifier, its recomended ph is 5-7.5 …
Naturallythinking.com, where I buy preservative mix, says that sorbate/benzoate has ph range 1- 5.5. After you say they work better on lower PH I made a research on other websites and also found this info.
Do you think it is ok for facial or body cream to have PH lower then 5?
What preservative do you suggest to use, that are approved for “green” products?

Thank you!

[Eugene]

Abdullah said:

You didn’t say what is your pH.

Oh right! It is between 5-5.4

PhilGeis said:

Eugene said:

Hello! I buy ready to use preservative mix (sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate) on naturallythinking.com. I would like to make the mix by myself. Can you please suggest right percentage of water/benzoate/sorbate ?
Thank you!

If that’s all (and two organic acids - neither of which is likely natural) is  prob unnecessary duplication.  In any case, it’s a very poor system.  Suggest ~3000 ppm of either with pH adjusted appropriately and something to impact Gram neg bacteria.

I try formulate organic. So I’m constantly in search for “natural” broad spectrum preservatives. In facial formulations  use geogard ultra, in anhydrous - Geogard ETC. I dot’t like using ETC in lotions because it changes final scent of product. May be it will be better to use Geogard Ultra instead of sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate? I also use Sodium Phytate in every hydrous formulation.
Thank you!

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

If you ask for the compositional analysis perhaps you can get exact percentages, but typical usage rates are 0.3% Sodium Benzoate + 0.15% Potassium Sorbate, each of which you can add as powders directly to the water phase of your formula … no need to make a separate blend in water unless you want to.

Thank you very much! Do you think it is enough broad preservative for emultion formulation with ~5.3PH?
Or may be Geogard Ultra is more powerful?
Thank you!

[Eugene]

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

If you ask for the compositional analysis perhaps you can get exact percentages, but typical usage rates are 0.3% Sodium Benzoate + 0.15% Potassium Sorbate, each of which you can add as powders directly to the water phase of your formula … no need to make a separate blend in water unless you want to.

Oh right! It is between 5-5.4

[Eugene]

Hello! I buy ready to use preservative mix (sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate) on naturallythinking.com. I would like to make the mix by myself. Can you please suggest right percentage of water/benzoate/sorbate ?
Thank you!

[Eugene]

Perry said:

I’m not sure but you might contact someone at the Russia SCC.
https://ifscc.org/member-societies/member-directory/?location=ru  or maybe the Turkish society.  https://ifscc.org/member-societies/member-directory/?location=tr
They would be the closest to your location.

Thank you, Perry! 
I will try to contact them.

[Eugene]

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

(1)   Heat your water phase to 55C to dissolve both the Allantoin (0.5% maximum) and Geogard Ultra which is normally soluble in water at RT, but heat always helps.  Don’t heat above 55C as at higher temps you may see some Allantoin crystalize out.

(2)   Panthenol (Powder) … this implies that you are using a D,L Panthenol.  If you want to load up Panthenol at 9.5%, you’ll be better off using D-Panthenol, which is a liquid (available from DSM and repacked by Making Cosmetics).

(3)   With that high a load of Panthenol (assuming D-Panthenol) and Glycerin in a water-based formula, this is going to be an unpleasantly sticky mess of a concoction.

Don’t chase the percentages that other people use in their formulas.  Formulas advertising very high loads of indivudual ingredients are generally nonsense.  Enough is enough, more is not necessarily better.  With D-Panthenol, 0.5% to 1.0% would be sufficient.

Thank you Mark! I remade formula according to your recommendation and it turned out great!

Graillotion said:

I typically formulate with dl Panthenol in the range of .4 to .5%.

I have been told I have very calming creations….

I always use Allantoin (at .5% of water phase….which is lower than .5% of total formula), and dl Panthenol at those very low rates.

Mark is absolutely right….Panthenol at higher levels….simply becomes sticky yuck….. and unlikely to create a benefit.

Just made new batch and consistency is good enough. Thank you! Hope it will be calming also))

[Eugene]

seaberry said:

Eugene said:

Graillotion said:

Can not help without percentages, but agree with seaberry, as allantoin will only go into the water phase at about .5%.  A small additional amount can temporarily be tricked into solution with heat…but won’t stay there.
Mommy blogger sites like to try and get you to load things up, I think they get a cut from the repackers.

And my golden rule of cosmetics….Just because something is good at a low rate….does not mean it is better….at a high rate!

Panthenol - 5%
Allantoin - 5% 🤦‍♀️
Geogard - 1%

Thank you. So it ia fully my fault, lack of attention while reading allantoin allowed percentage, 0.1-2%…
Do you think there are enough soothing components to make this spray really working, if I add
Allantoin 0.5
Panthenol 9.5
?

5% allantoin makes sense. That’s never gonna dissolve. 

As most of your formula is water-based, 0.5% would probably be okay. 

9.5% panthenol would be fine from a stability standpoint, but that’s overkill. We don’t have tons of data on panthenol (relative to ascorbic acid, tretinoin, etc), but most of the studies we do have max out at 5% panthenol. 

But then again, I imagine this is for personal use, and even commerical products with 10% panthenol do exist, so you do you

Thank you very much! If I only add 5% of panthenol and 0.5 allantoin, do you think It will be enough to calm skin afrter sun?

[Eugene]

Graillotion said:

Can not help without percentages, but agree with seaberry, as allantoin will only go into the water phase at about .5%.  A small additional amount can temporarily be tricked into solution with heat…but won’t stay there.
Mommy blogger sites like to try and get you to load things up, I think they get a cut from the repackers.

And my golden rule of cosmetics….Just because something is good at a low rate….does not mean it is better….at a high rate!

Panthenol - 5%
Allantoin - 5% 🤦‍♀️
Geogard - 1%

Thank you. So it ia fully my fault, lack of attention while reading allantoin allowed percentage, 0.1-2%…
Do you think there are enough soothing components to make this spray really working, if I add
Allantoin 0.5
Panthenol 9.5
?

[Eugene]

seaberry said:

It would really get you farther if you included the ingredient percentages. 

Panthenol is almost freely soluble in water (even 10% should be fine). So neither it nor the Geogard should cause issues at reasonable concentrations. 

Allantoin is likely the most probable cause. It’s generally only soluble around 0.5%, and even then it can be finicky. 

Overall, you may find better results by adding a polyol, such as butylene glycol at 1~5%.

Panthenol - 5%
Allantoin - 5%
Geogard - 1%

Thank you! So probably all the sitted powder is allantoin? I just read the percentage of  Panthenol foaming spray, that I had at home and it claimed 10% of Panthenol+Allantoin. Hope decreasing % of allantoin will help.

[Eugene]

ChemicalPyros said:

It will depends on the water content, if you have a low water activity it will inhibit bacterial and fungal growth, if not a preservative is in order, but be very careful as lips are more sensitive than other areas, so the preservative should be very mild.
Flavors are usually light sensitive and may go bad with bacterial or fungal contamination.

Hmm, thank you. So it is better to choose oil based…

[Eugene]

ChemicalPyros said:

Hello Eugene,

As flavors they are usually treated like fragrances, you add them in the same way as the fragrance.

They may be compatible with lip scrubs (if the scrubbing agent is salt or sugar), but it might not dissolve in anything anhydrous. So you might consider adding a surfactant to help the dissolution.

Thank you for answer! And what about preservation? I don’t add preservative to lip scrubs, will this type flavor spoil it, if it is water based?

[Eugene]

singhc10 said:

Try using Oleocraft MP-32 (INCI:Polyamide-3) from croda, or Oilkemia 5S (INCI:Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride (and) Polyurethane-79 from Lubrizol, latter one is expensive

Thank you! Does Oleocraft MP-32 just add viscosity?

[Eugene]

Microformulation said:

It is likely you will need to look at products that aren’t “less toxic and mostly with natural components”, terms that really aren’t very useful in R&D.

Ok, if forgetting about natural and toxic aspect, what can I make to solve the problem?

Thank you!

[Eugene]

ngarayeva001 said:

If you want a serum with niacinamide, just use 4-5% of niacinamide. I looked through several studies and haven’t noticed the use of more than 5%, although some brands use 10% it doesn’t seem to be justified. Water, niacinamide, glycerin, preservative and HMW hyaluronic acid as a gelling agent.

Thank you for you advise! I think I will make other serum using Niacinamide. I use Ordinary serum(Niacinamide 10% + Zinc 1%) for myself and can see visible pore minimizing effect. May be it will be the same with 5%, don’t know. 

Microformulation said:

https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/294/pcc-benefits-niacinamide/

Thanks a lot! Didn’t know about this website, it helped a lot.

[Eugene]

Perry said:

In my opinion, I could create a formula using just Water, Glycerin, Xanthan gum, and Caprylyl/Capryl Glucoside and get all the moisture boosting benefits you would get from making the formula you are attempting. 

The reality is that most of the ingredients you are adding are “claims” ingredients that are put in formulas to tell stories to consumers to get them to buy otherwise uninteresting (but effective) products. These ingredients, especially the plant extracts, are having no effect in your formula at all. 

I know the companies marketing these raw materials, the brands using them, and the unwitting bloggers who write about them will tell you different, but their opinions are biased. They are motivated to get you to buy something. They rely on you to buy into the story of ingredients. 

Aloe is a humectant. Glycerin is a humectant. But glycerin is so much more efficient and effective at being a humectant that with it in your formula, you will see zero benefit from aloe. Therefore, the ONLY reason companies add aloe is so they can tell the story that the product has aloe. People are much more inclined to buy a product with aloe than one with glycerin. 

Everything sounds even worse than I expected ))) But as you said, if I won’t add such components to formula it won’t be interesting to consumers. 

[Eugene]

Perry said:

@Eugene - the only group of scientists you should listen to when it comes to chemical safety is Toxicologists. Not chemists, not biologists, not formulators, but Toxicologists.  You can find the consensus of their opinion about ingredients at https://cir-safety.org 

Ecocert / Cosmos is not a scientific organization. They  are a moneymaking operation that relies on fees from companies who want to get certified using their seal. Their standards are mostly arbitrary and not based on science. 

Thank you for the link!  Just hope that they also are not moneymakers :#
Very dissapointed with Ecocert and Cosmos…

P.S. Sorry for late answer

[Eugene]

Perry said:

I recommend you use parabens and formaldehyde donors. 

I recommend formulators use preservatives that have a long history of safe and effective use (like parabens & formaldehyde donors).

I recommend formulators not use unproven, natural preservatives that likely make products less safe. (like many of the ones approved by Ecocert)

I recommend that formulators do not compromise on product safety and succumb to marketing whims & misinformed consumer desires. 

I recommend you do not follow the formulating strategies of organic companies who produce products that are less safe for consumers.

I’m a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to product safety. I don’t think it should every be compromised in an effort to support a marketing position.  There are other formulators on this forum who have a different philosophy and may provide you with more helpful advice when it comes to the area of natural product preservation. 

I understand you… But it is so hard for a new formulator to choose between safe and safe…When I listen to chemists I get one info, the other side I read scientists works about parabens and formaldehydes that affect hormones and got confused. 
How do they approve those Ecocert/Cosmos preservatives without good testing?

Pharma said:

Weleda does strict tests and I’d say consumers are safe when using their products but honestly, these feel greasy or otherwise unpleasant more often than not. Can’t have it all…

BTW they also use (though not everywhere) glycerol, low pH (citric or lactic acid), w/o emulsions, and in newer concepts also glyceryl caprylate as preservative strategies.

Use the search function, we’ve covered % of alcohol and glycerol on several occasions.

I thought that glyceryl caprylate was only co-emulsifier… Anyway all this components sound like all natural…So they do not break the philosophy of nature formulation.
Thank you! I will search for other  posts on alcohol.

[Eugene]

Perry said:

Sure, Niacinamide is soluble in water.  As to the % to use, that depends on  why you are using it.  Why are you adding it to the formula?

What benefit is it going to bring to the formula that the formula lacks?  

You’ve already got aloe, lavender, cucumber, panthenol, allantoin, hyaulronic acid,  glycerin & a fruit acid complex with 5 more extracts as “active” ingredients. What extra benefit would you get by adding niacinamide?  For that matter, what specific benefit are you getting from each of the things that you have already added?

Whenever you are formulating, each chemical you add to the formula should have some specific purpose. Your goal should be to minimize the number of chemicals you put in a formula, not maximize them. 

If you were cooking, you wouldn’t add a little bit of every single spice in your spice cabinet.  It’s the same with formulating. Add only things to your formula that will provide some specific benefit that you can’t get otherwise.

If you are just adding the Niacinamide for marketing purposes, put in 0.1%.

Thank you for answer. Serum is called Moisture Boost. It has to deeply moisturize dehydrated skin and have calming effect on it. So the the main purpose of so many extracts and moisturizing actives was to justify it. 

Do you say that there is no need to add multiple extracts and actives and only one can do all job? But besides moisture properties, doesn’t these components have other benefit on skin?

What about Niacinamide, I want to add pore minimizing effect to the serum…

[Eugene]

Perry said:

While sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate are certified by Ecocert/Cosmos, they are not actually natural. Supplies of those ingredients are synthetically produced.  There are no truly natural preservatives.  The other downside is that these ingredients will also destabilize emulsions.

The preservative you choose will depend on the type of formula you are making. What are you trying to make? Emulsions? Solutions? Gels?

But as far as Cosmos certified…these are your options:

Benzoic acid and its salts
Benzyl alcohol

Salicylic acid and its salts

Sorbic acid/potassium sorbate

Sodium benzoate

Potassium sorbate

Phenethyl alcohol

Sodium levulinate

Benzoic acid

Ethyl lactate

Whether they are effective or not…well you’ll have to try it and find out. These things are not as reliable as standard, time tested, effective preservatives.

Thank you very much. I’m making emulsions and water based serum. 
It is a very long list but which you can recommend? Will it be effective to use only one of them or should I use the combination?

P.S. Weleda and some of other organic companies use alcohol(raw grain) as a preservative. I tried to find any formula to see proportions but there is no information on websites…