[drjaysee]

Perry said:

@drjayseesunish - Hair mask and Hair oil are just marketing terms. They have no scientific definition. In the marketplace, hair oils are generally some liquid product that you put on your hair. This could be hydrocarbon based but you could also thicken up some water and call it a hair oil.  Hair masks are generally a cream or lotion that you put in your hair. They are generally emulsions.

In terms of effect on the hair neither would be considered superior. Anything that can be delivered via a “hair oil” can be delivered via a “hair mask”. 

Hair masks were introduced just to give consumers an experience to make them feel like they are doing something special to their hair.

The reality is that none of these products do anything other than condition hair.  They DON’T make hair grow better. They DON’T do anything for scalp health.  Those are all just marketing stories to get people to buy products that they otherwise don’t really need.

Hair care is pretty simple. All you need is shampoo, a conditioner, and maybe a styling product. All other products (except colors, chemical treatments) are marketing stories that provide little to no additional benefit.

@Perry I am from land of Ayurveda where the every ailments of our body treated by plant based medicine, oil and many more thing. So it seems to difficult to accept, as oils don’t do anything for hair.
Perry, please forgive me if it’s odd to your comments. I know, we learn a lot from knowledge and experiences of others too.
I tell you my case. I used to wash my hairs  with soap, a common soap and oiling my hairs with coconut oil for so many years and my hair was black, thick, voluminous and long enough to touch my thigh. For further study I had  to moved other city where I had to use shampoo( Pantene), I didn’t use oil. What I got a year after, I lost my volume of my hairs and got all other hair related problems. So here I  can compare pre and post oil and shampoo treated phase.
 
There are so many researches where proved the efficacy of oils on hairs. 

You know today 3/4 of populations suffering from hairs problems , despite of so many commercial hair products where they blame of treating any problems of hairs and what they get , an another problem and they get trapped in vicious cycle of using another hair products.

Today we are so advanced, using so many synthetic products, all superior na,  and our ages old generation were only facilitated by these oils and water only to clean hairs , still they were blessed with good, long, voluminous hairs which we see today very rarely despite of so many advanced products and treatment. 

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish Try premixing your fragramce with CDEA, and see how it goes.

@ketchito I am mixing CAPB with cdea then add it to liquid. Now should I mix it cdea first then it add to CAPB ? I will try it. Thanks a lot ketchito. 

[drjaysee]

Abdullah said:

drjayseesunish said:

Abdullah said:

drjayseesunish said:

@Abdullah @ketchito I  am making dishwash liquid and I  have seen mixing the fragrance and food colour,if  not in particular sequence, the liquid lost its viscosity. Previously you told fragrance oil should be mixed in CAPB and I did so but didn’t get purpose. So please while making these liquid when we should add this fragrance and colour, previously before r after particular step. One more thing what we should use fragrance oil or fragrance liquid extract. I am using essential oil.

What is your formula and procedure?

@Abdullah
1. water labsa NaOH adjust ph 7. Add Sles.
2 capb. fragrance oil mix together. Cdea.
 3.mix 2 in 1 liquid.
 4.add colour 
5 NaCl 
Again see ph and find better action below ph7.

What is the percentage?

Does it loss viscosity when you add fragrance?

“if not in particular sequence, the liquid lost its viscosity.” In what sequence it does not lose viscosity? 

@Abdullah yes when mix fragrance then lose its viscosity. 
Once I made it with same fragrance, not lost viscosity. I forgot to write down as I didn’t think it will be much important . I didn’t remember that particular sequence that’s why I am asking Is there any particular step to add it.

[drjaysee]

Anna_Maria said:

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

There’s a very nice book called Cosmetic Formulation: Principles and Practice, you can find it online. Let me know if you have troubles getting it????

Is there any pdf of this book? Any other pdf of cosmetic book?

i found the pdf free online ill share it here with you
https://www.academia.edu/73270426/Cosmetic_Formulation_Principles_and_Practice?source=swp_share

@Anna Maria thanks a lot for kind help.

[drjaysee]

@nmalti which fragrance are you using, acqous or oil based? Can you tell me brand name? 

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

There’s a very nice book called Cosmetic Formulation: Principles and Practice, you can find it online. Let me know if you have troubles getting it????

Is there any pdf of this book? Any other pdf of cosmetic book?

[drjaysee]

Abdullah said:

drjayseesunish said:

@Abdullah @ketchito I  am making dishwash liquid and I  have seen mixing the fragrance and food colour,if  not in particular sequence, the liquid lost its viscosity. Previously you told fragrance oil should be mixed in CAPB and I did so but didn’t get purpose. So please while making these liquid when we should add this fragrance and colour, previously before r after particular step. One more thing what we should use fragrance oil or fragrance liquid extract. I am using essential oil.

What is your formula and procedure?

@Abdullah
1. water labsa NaOH adjust ph 7. Add Sles.
2 capb. fragrance oil mix together. Cdea.
 3.mix 2 in 1 liquid.
 4.add colour 
5 NaCl 
Again see ph and find better action below ph7.

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish I wouldn’t use essential oils in a liquid dishwash, it’s expensive, hard to solubilize and can impact viscosity. I’d rather use a common fragrance, which will usually come with a solubilizing system according to your product. That one can be added directly, or pre-solubilized with part of your surfactants.

@ketchito thanks a lot ketchito. You don’t know how much eagerness I was waiting your reply ????.

[drjaysee]

drjayseesunish said:

@Abdullah @ketchito I  am making dishwash liquid and I  have seen mixing the fragrance and food colour,if  not in particular sequence, the liquid lost its viscosity. Previously you told fragrance oil should be mixed in CAPB and I did so but didn’t get purpose. So please while making these liquid when we should add this fragrance and colour, previously before r after particular step. One more thing what we should use fragrance oil or fragrance liquid extract. I am using essential oil.

*Precisely before or after step

[drjaysee]

@Abdullah @ketchito I  am making dishwash liquid and I  have seen mixing the fragrance and food colour,if  not in particular sequence, the liquid lost its viscosity. Previously you told fragrance oil should be mixed in CAPB and I did so but didn’t get purpose. So please while making these liquid when we should add this fragrance and colour, previously before r after particular step. One more thing what we should use fragrance oil or fragrance liquid extract. I am using essential oil.

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

@ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry ????

Fordrjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

@ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry ????

 For a dishwasher it’s not worthy to add rheology modifiers because of budget. But in water based cosmetics, you would need them. You couls thicken some surfactant bases products using just NaCl (growing micelles), but some systems are salt sensitive or you want to use the salt free claim. Xanthan gume comes in handy in these products, but the sensorial is not too appealing, and it doesn’t let you suspend some particles or oils. Carbomers are excellent at suspending stuff (due to the net of polymeric chains it has), but depending on your formula, it could be sensitive to salt (if you’re using it as well).

@ketchito ok got it. Some queries,1. if carbomer excellent emulsifier then can  we use in place  of bee wax in making lotion/cream  or we need to add different kind of emulsifier for getting our results.
2. I have seen someone  is making gel by using cationic guar gum in aqueous extract of aloe,( I believed carbomer only ) that made me to think, polymer can be used make gel but thing is what is difference between different gel? Is all no difference or their use depand on the quality or types of products as cleaning/ cosmetics/ medicinal etc.

1. In emulsions, you need to thicken both the water phase and the oil phase; in your case, the carbomer would thicken the water phase while the beeswax will thicken the oil phase. The advantage of a hydrophobically modified acrylic polymer over a regular carbomer, is that while the backbone resides and thickens the water phase, the hydrophobic side chain interacts with the oil phase, giving extra stabilization. 

2. You could make a gel with cationic guar, but it wouldn’t be so pleasant, plus you’ll have too much cationic guar depositing on your skin, and it’s preferably not having too many charged molecules there.

@ketchito thanks a lot. I am very grateful to you as sometimes questions unanswered but you always give your precious time to answer these questions. 

[drjaysee]

Abdullah said:

drjayseesunish said:

Abdullah said:

saeedulfat said:

Abdullah yes the first time viscosity is ok . When made in cold season and get to hot season this time the shampoo lose viscosity.and what about the carbomer for viscosity control ?

You can use whatever you want but i am more on the side of budget friendly ingredients and there are a lot of good and budget friendly options like guar gum, xanthan gum, HPMC and more that you can choose. As you have no problem with NACL the best option is NACL. 

Best way is to purchase some liquid SLES or make a 25% solution from paste with high shear, then makes a sample with that, then add NACL in small amounts and see with how much NACL you get desired viscosity without shifting to other side of salt curve. 

@Abdullah so how much of salt for desired viscosity can measured by experiment and experiment only? Am I right ?

I mean do like this 
Make the shampoo, it will be water thin 

Add 0.2% NACL, mix and see the viscosity

Then add 0.2% more, mix and see the viscosity. 

Do like this until you reach the viscosity you want. 

Then note that. 

@Abdullah thanks a lot.

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I’d make a salt curve of your systems to know if you’re oversalting it or not.

@ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too????

Sometimes you have more than one peak in your salt curve, so you could keep adding salt. Alternatively, you could add water to dilute the effect of salt. Or add some rheology modifier.

@ketchito thanks a lot. 

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

@ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry ????

Fordrjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

@ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry ????

 For a dishwasher it’s not worthy to add rheology modifiers because of budget. But in water based cosmetics, you would need them. You couls thicken some surfactant bases products using just NaCl (growing micelles), but some systems are salt sensitive or you want to use the salt free claim. Xanthan gume comes in handy in these products, but the sensorial is not too appealing, and it doesn’t let you suspend some particles or oils. Carbomers are excellent at suspending stuff (due to the net of polymeric chains it has), but depending on your formula, it could be sensitive to salt (if you’re using it as well).

@ketchito ok got it. Some queries,1. if carbomer excellent emulsifier then can  we use in place  of bee wax in making lotion/cream  or we need to add different kind of emulsifier for getting our results.
2. I have seen someone  is making gel by using cationic guar gum in aqueous extract of aloe,( I believed carbomer only ) that made me to think, polymer can be used make gel but thing is what is difference between different gel? Is all no difference or their use depand on the quality or types of products as cleaning/ cosmetics/ medicinal etc.

[drjaysee]

Abdullah said:

saeedulfat said:

Abdullah yes the first time viscosity is ok . When made in cold season and get to hot season this time the shampoo lose viscosity.and what about the carbomer for viscosity control ?

You can use whatever you want but i am more on the side of budget friendly ingredients and there are a lot of good and budget friendly options like guar gum, xanthan gum, HPMC and more that you can choose. As you have no problem with NACL the best option is NACL. 

Best way is to purchase some liquid SLES or make a 25% solution from paste with high shear, then makes a sample with that, then add NACL in small amounts and see with how much NACL you get desired viscosity without shifting to other side of salt curve. 

@Abdullah so how much of salt for desired viscosity can measured by experiment and experiment only? Am I right ?

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I’d make a salt curve of your systems to know if you’re oversalting it or not.

@ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too????

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

It’s usually cationic polymers, since positive charges work as micelle promoters (like honey attracting bears…if bears were as peaceful and honey-loving as Winnie Pooh, and they could all organize in groups, hehe). Perhaps the Higgs bossom analogy would fit better ????

@ketchito one more doubt here, I  saw many viscosity builders in brand shampoo formula, as NaCl, carbomer, guar gum and may be many more I unaware their propriety. So here why they are using so many as they can get viscosity using one ingredient only as I  made dishwash and got viscosity by NaCl alone. Please elaborate your chemistry ????

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

1. Quite the contrary. Repulsion between ionic head groups doesn’t let micelles grow and arrange properly (packing). It’s like Tetrix, you want to build a structure tightly packed and with no holes, but ionic head groups will leave holes due to repulsion.

2. Simply put, yes (giant micelles have a very ordered arrangement)

3. Fatty alcohols are not surfactants while glyceryl stearate is (different molecular structure, different interfacial activity, different way of interacting with surfactants)

4. No in the case of CAPB (it’s a c12-14, too short a chain). In the case of glucoside, it should have a long alkyl chain. Just because the don’t have a net charge, doesn’t mean they’ll behave the same

@ketchito when you explain interestingly then people like me get the better understanding all these chemistry. I read reread your comments and erase many doubts.

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish Just to contribute on the topic, cationic polymers make anionic cleansers milder by reducing the amount of single anionics, promoting micelle formation. This can also be done by CAPB, so increasing the level of CAPB and reducing the anionic can also work.

@ketchito your explanation helped me a better understanding. Thank you????

[drjaysee]

Abdullah said:

That depends on what type of product are you making, what features other than thickening do you want from your thickener and, what type of thickener is easier for you to work with, what price and other factors. 

For cleansing products i prefer NACL and xanthan gum because they are inexpensive, i have them available anyway and i have no problem in working with these too. 

@Abdullah I agreed with your points but many times I have seen NaCl in ingredients of branded shampoo and other products so easy availability is not a marked point here as I think, may be NaCl is fine viscosity builder comparative to other viscosity building ingredients. 

[drjaysee]

Pharma said:

drjayseesunish said:

@Paprik sounds a very strict teacher is asking ????

Not a strict but a helpful and smart one . This is the one answer (or question) which may lead to any constructive results.

@Pharma this one smart head teacher ????

[drjaysee]

Paprik said:

Coco Glucoside, as non-ionic, does add to the mildness of the product. You could also try some cationic gum (guar hydropropyltrimonium Chloride), Polyquats (Polyquaternium-7) or superfatting agent (PEG-30 Glyceryl Cocoate). 

@Paprik I want to know as he asked for mildness, then why need to add 3rd surfactant as 2 sufficient to provide the gentle cleaning. Now you told adding these so how can cationic gum provide the mildness, as it is used as viscosity builder. I don’t know much about these, just acquiring knowledge, if possible please describe it.

[drjaysee]

Paprik said:

Before I will try to help, I need to ask.

Have you created this product? Or any other? Have you touched/seen those listed ingredients? Do you understand a bit of chemistry? 

@Paprik sounds a very strict teacher is asking ????

[drjaysee]

tecnico3vinia said:

As Perry said, soap is old technology. People have been using it for ages, but now we have more advanced and sophisticated technology that allows the creation of products that are also more sophisticated and with better characteristics overall (e.g the sensory properties after washing the product).

Yes, in soap you can use different oils since every oil have different fatty acid profile and can influence the final product properties. Some oils influence the hardness, some the cleansing properties, some the mildness/afterfeel and so on. 

@tecnico3vinia thanks sharing knowledge. 

[drjaysee]

ketchito said:

@drjayseesunish As mentioned before, guar gum and GHTC are two different ingredients (not alternatives for each other). In the case of Guar gum, I see no reason for clumping, rather than mechanical (eg., low mixing speed, inadecuate mixer, short mixing time). Gums have to be vigurously mixed and for quite some time, to priperly incorporate them and prevent clumping.

@ketchito thanks 
 I have made shampoo using guar gum and facing same problem. Now you told the reason behind it and I will do the same as you mentioned for guar gum.