[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
Ah I see what you mean. I can’t even find the pH of this product mentioned anywhere? Seems important enough though!
Using this at 2% is quite an electrolyte bomb, doesn’t surprise me that EMT 10 can’t handle it.

[Doreen]

@Sponge
Hi Sponge.
Sterile water means water with no single microbe present (and often, when used parenterally, it is meant that it contains no pyrogens, which are simply said the ‘mortal remains’ of killed microbes, which can be removed by e.g. a filtration procedure). You won’t achieve this by simply boiling your water for one minute. If it would be this easy, we wouldn’t need autoclaves in the hospitals, where products are steam sterilized under a certain pressure and temperature, for a certain time, depending on protocol, what will be sterilized (e.g. at a pressure of 500 pKa for fifteen minutes on a constant temperature of 121°C).

Of course the center for disease control does advise in some areas to boil drinking water as this will kill a lot of pathogenic microbes and will drastically lower the chance of becoming sick. Especially in areas where the water quality is questionable. However it won’t sterilize it (thus kill all microbes).
An interesting read about ‘behaviour’ of bacterial spores:
https://asknature.org/strategy/spores-provide-dormancy-at-high-temperature/

Using sterile excipients and utensils when making skincare is really overkill.
Sterile water is only helpful when all other excipients, utensils and packaging are sterile, like for example a sterile medicinal ophthalmic ointment that’s used ón the eye.
Then a sterilized disposable mortar and pestle and other sterile utensils are used, along with the sterilized ingredients, in a laminated airflow cabinet in an ISO certified class B (or higher) cleanroom, wearing sterilized gloves and protective clothing and finally put in a sterilized packaging (mostly a disposable unit dose of 5 grams).
Or simply said, if the final product isn’t sterile, doesn’t have to be sterile, there is no use (and a waste of money) to use one (or more) sterile excipient(s).
You should however, use ingredients from a well known source, a source that can assure you with documentation informing about the absence of pathogenic microbes, e.g. E-coli species, Salmonella species. And work as clean as possible (in accordance with cGMP) and make sure it is properly preserved.

Edited some typos.

[Doreen]

ngarayeva001 said:

Wait a second! It’s a ready blend that you bought from a DIY store. It must be buffered for safety reasons. Acids can cause serious damage. They locked pH using acid’s conjugate salt. Probably sodium citrate. It’s a strong electrolyte. That’s why Sepinov can’t deal with it.

I’ve never heard of this. DIY stores here sell several kinds of (organic) acids, pure and dilluted.
If it was for those safety reasons they couldn’t sell alkali like sodium or potassium hydroxide either, which most of them do here.
Or do you mean fruit blends specifically?

Lindsey1009 said:

Doreen said:

Hibiscus is quite acidic as well. I’ve had a hydroglycolic Hibiscus extract that had a pH of 2.5.

I think the Sepinov EMT 10 is overwhelmed by the acids (thus electrolytes) in your formula. 

Yeah, I guess I just cant use fruit acids with Septinov emt for some reason?

Probably because Sepinov EMT 10 isn’t the strongest on higher amounts of electrolytes (acids are electrolytes). Sepimax Zen for example can handle more electrolytes and a lower pH. Hydroxyethylcellulose could also be an option.
What is the pH of your serum by the way?

I have attached two documents, about Sepinov EMT 10 and Sepimax Zen, I hope it may be of help for you.

(Edit: I see now that @missmorganlang already suggested hydroxyethylcellulose. It’s a very good suggestion, as it’s electrolyte tolerant and it can handle a low pH.)

[Doreen]

Hibiscus is quite acidic as well. I’ve had a hydroglycolic Hibiscus extract that had a pH of 2.5.

I think the Sepinov EMT 10 is overwhelmed by the acids (thus electrolytes) in your formula. 

[Doreen]

Parabens can get deactivated by non-ionics, especially polysorbate 80 (and to a lesser extent 20 and 60). I’ve never heard this about phenoxyethanol.

Here some information from a book called Surfactants in Cosmetics by Rieger/Rhein:

[Doreen]

Perry said:

Our unequal earth? Then get just some skills, work hard and you’ll be off poverty. A simple and time-proven solution, comrades.

Hard work is overrated as a solution to poverty. Lots of hard working people are dirt poor. More important is being lucky & being born to the right set of parents in the right country. CEOs certainly aren’t the hardest working people at their companies.

Well said, Perry! Couldn’t agree more!

@Gunther
What does hard work and poverty have to do with an article about hair dye? :confused:

[Doreen]

@Maryvel
(…) I tested many synthetic fragrances on my skin, and 100% of them cause allergies. (…)

Did you have an allergy test done in the hospital, or did you test some fragrances yourself?

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
What expiration date have you set for your opened bottles of water?
It just feels like a waste to throw around 4 liters away from every bottle, but just like you, I’m also afraid of contamination. I don’t boil it though.

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
You really don’t need sterile water for cosmetics. You’re not going to inject it I hope? (Plus boiling won’t sterilize it)

I am really curious what else was in that facewash? I’ve never had any visible growth so far in any of my formulas, even the creams that I’ve preserved with Euxyl 9010 at 1%. And I’ve even used collodial oatmeal for a while at 2.5%, years ago. 

(Edit: I forgot to mention that parabens can get inactivated by surfactants. I believe it’s also mentioned in a Phenonip document.)

[Doreen]

@Bill_Toge
Ok, thanks! I use rather low levels of fatty alcohols/acids in moisturizers, maybe that’s why I don’t see it (the cream reaching a higher viscosity after a few days) happen.

[Doreen]

These are a few types of vegetable oils that I don’t see very often in products:

• Cacay Seed Oil (INCI: Caryodendron Orinocense Seed Oil)
• Prickly Pear Seed Oil (INCI: Opuntia Ficus-Indica Seed Oil) => this oil is very expensive
• Kukui Nut Oil (also Candlenut Oil, INCI: Aleurites Moluccanus Seed Oil)
• Strawberry Seed Oil (INCI: Fragaria Ananassa (Strawberry) Seed Oil)
• Oat Oil (INCI: Avena Sativa (Oat) Kernel Oil)

[Doreen]

gmicca said:

khoikhoa said:

I will add vitamin E as antioxidant for some oils you are using

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention it there. I added 0.2% Tocopherol

I’ve heard combining BHT and tocopherol in one formula at a certain level can cause discoloration, but I have no idea if that’s true, since I never combine those.

[Doreen]

ngarayeva001 said:

(…) having in mind that the product will gain final viscosity only after a couple of days.

I’ve seen this brought up many times, that you gain final viscosity only after a day or 2 if you use fatty acids/alcohols, but I’ve never experienced it myself. Viscosity right after cooling down has always been the same as a few days later. And I’ve made quite some creams with cetyl/stearyl alcohol and the likes.

Isn’t that what’s been described not actually a cream drying out? How is the packaging? A jar? 

[Doreen]

One more tip for understanding emulsions: this is a link to a former discussion here on CC, it’s a gem! (written by @Bill_Toge ) 
https://www.chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/3005/emulsions-setting-the-record-straight

[Doreen]

In addition on my reply above:

I also totally agree with @Belassi on the resveratrol.

I would recommend to experiment with ferulic acid and resveratrol later on, when you are more experienced making stable emulsions, they’re difficult to solubilize and very expensive.

[Doreen]

@marinaartm
Practically every herbal extract contains more or less electrolytes.
Are you aware that Emulsan (methyl glucose sesquistearate) is a W/O emulsifier instead of O/W? W/O emulsions need a whole different approach than O/W’s, for stability these actually need electrolytes, so I don’t think the electrolytes are the problem here.
If you would combine the Emsulsan with PEG-20 methyl glycose sesquistearate (Glucamate™ SSE-20) you could make O/W emulsions with it.
I’d recommend a ‘sturdy’ emulsifier blend like glyceryl stearate + PEG-100 stearate, which tolerates electrolytes, is relatively cheap and is perfect for newbies.

crillz said:

Yeah agree with belassi, I’m not sure if the citric acid is going to like the high electrolytes too much, hence making it runny. (…)

What do you mean with this? Citric acid ís an electrolyte.

Edit: Here is a link with some info on the difference between O/W and W/O emulsions.
And about the GMS + PEG-100 stearate blend: it’s an O/W emulsifier blend and I use it myself a lot, it’s one of my favourites.

[Doreen]

A volatile silicone, like cyclo D5 (cyclopentasiloxane) also has a less greasy feel and makes spreading easy.

[Doreen]

@Will
I think @ngarayeva001 meant 20% L-ascorbic acid, not 20% lactic acid.

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
Correct! That as well.

[Doreen]

Perry said:

(…) @ngarayeva001 - I overlooked the gel possibilities, so congratulations, you’ve changed my view…a little bit. (…)

That’s also the biggest reason why I use medium/high molecular weight hyaluronic acid in serums.

It’s funny that in private I use it for its viscosity and work-related I only deal with an enzyme that breaks it down (a hyaluronidase) which causes i.a. loss of viscosity of HA. (This increases tissue permeability and has so many pharmaceutical uses from preventing necrosis of skin (when extravasation happens with some chemos) to the possibility to inject higher volumes subcutaneous, as there isn’t much space between the dermis and hypodermis).

[Doreen]

ngarayeva001 said:

Yep, a guinea pig here who tried: low pH 20% LAA (freshly made stored in the fridge), 10% Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, 5% MAP in combination with 2% Alpha Arbutin, no forms of vitamin C above do anything to reduce freckles even when applied religiously for more than 2 months. If it actually reduces pigmentation it’s not because of vitamin C.

I don’t know much about whitening ingredients, so I also haven’t read about scientific studies, but I wonder are there even studies that confirm that vitamin C is a whitening ingredient at all?
They also say that about licorice, but I use licorice as soothing ingredient and have never noticed any change in skin tone.

I also wonder how true those ‘studies’ are that are done by manufacturers (e.g. Seppic, Evonik etc.), in those product leaflets where they try to prove that their product really works. Those ‘before/after’ pictures.

[Doreen]

Pharma said:

If you use small peptides or amino acids, you’d also have a moisturiser at the same time .

Do those really make a significant difference?

Shampoos, to me, are only for cleaning and I don’t mind if they contain sulfates like SLES as long as it smells good, that’s about my only demand.
Expensive ingredients like panthenol just go down the drain without having done anything.

I have very long hair (even longer years ago, some hairdressers had to sit on their knees to cut/treat it, if my/their chairs couldn’t be any more adjusted in height :joy:) and I used to use masks, conditioners with all kinds of ‘actives’, oil treatments, rinsing hair with nettle tea and apple cider vinegar dilutions and whatnot to keep it in the best condition possible.)
But I can’t say that my hair was in a way better condition then as it is now, with just a simple shampoo and a silicone oil.
The only difference is that I used to dye it brown now and then, which I haven’t for at least 15 years anymore (my hair has grown darker naturally through the years and no I haven’t been using prostaglandine f analogues on my head nor my eyes for that matter).

I have a feeling that many (hair) treatments and ingredients are for marketing purposes only and don’t do anything miraculous, like turning brittle, thin hair into thick, strong hair or getting rid of baldness.
I think most significant changes in hair come from within, e.g. hormones, age.

[Doreen]

Agree with @Pharma. You can start with using as much as the amount of dimethicon c.q. cyclomethicone that you would otherwise have used.

[Doreen]

@Dtdang , @chemicalmatt , @smok
You are all welcome! If I find something interesting, first thing I do is share it here. It’s always nice if it can help more people than just myself.

Matt,
Sounds great! I think it’s a real talent if you can make a seminar fun, life (and usually the treated matter/subject is oftentimes serious enough as it is.

[Doreen]

@Max
You’re welcome!