[David08848]

thebrain, thanks for your input!  I have been leery about the claims on product literature especially since some made different claims for the same product!  I came to realize that marketing within the field is just as suspect as product marketing!  I did come across some photos of blender foam tests which I will have to relocate and I will keep looking on here as well with your suggestion in mind, thanks!

David

[David08848]

I purchased a quantity of fumed silica a few years ago and when we moved last year I found it again, portions of the top of the bag had turned quite a shade of deep yellow while the rest remained white so that may just the nature of the beast whether it is in a formula or left on its own over time.  I need to get rid of it but need to know where…

David

[David08848]

Glad to hear that the cost is lower!  Since I’m not working with APG’s it shouldn’t be a problem.  I’m going to get some quotes for the products I have narrowed it down to then go from there.  No point in formulating with something if it is too expensive or not readily accessible!

Thanks,chemicalmatt!

David

[David08848]

SoapyGuy, Thanks for your observations.  I figured that removing phase J would be OK and I also was thinking of removing the Guar Gum as well but leaving the Glycerin in phase F. 

I was looking for a substitute for the Cocamide MEA which I covered in another post.  You think the Cocomidopropyl Betaine at 10% might be a little high?  Doesn’t one of the other surfactants have a thickening reaction to the pH adjustment in conjunction with the use of CAPB?

Thanks again for your input!
David

[David08848]

Here’s a formula from Innospec that includes 10% Canola oil.  It is for a body wash but you might be able to get some ideas from this.

David

Sulfate-free Body Wash
Posted: February 15, 2012 10:05 AM CST

Application: Bath/Shower

This body wash (AC125) is a mild, sulfate-free facial cleanser featuring sodium lauroyl methyl isethionate and sodium methyl cocoyl taurate to product a dense, creamy lather upon application. The guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride imparts a soft, elegant feel to the skin and also helps improve foam quality. The guar gum and the cocamide MEA thicken this formulation and help stabilize the foam. The C12-15 alkyl benzoate acts as a mild solubilizing agent to gently remove soils from the skin as well as to provide conditioning

Request a Sample
Phase A
Water (aqua) QS to 100% 0.0%
Phase B
Sodium Chloride 4.0%
Phase C
Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride ( Activsoft C-17 , Innospec) 0.2%
Phase D
Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate 7.5%
Phase E
Sodium Methyl Cocoyl Taurate ( Pureact WS Conc. , Innospec) 7.5%
Phase F
Cyamopsis Tetragonoloba (Guar) Gum ( Activsoft S , Innospec) 0.5%
Glycerin 1.0%
Phase G
Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate ( Iselux LQ-CLR , Innospec) 30.0%
Phase H
Cocamide MEA ( Aminol CM Flakes , Innospec) 3.5%
Phase I
Cocamidopropyl Betaine 10.0%
Phase J
Canola Oil 10.0%
C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate ( Finsolv TN , Innospec) 2.0%
Phase K
Preservatives QS 0.0%
Dyes QS 0.0%
Fragrance (parfum) QS 0.0%
Phase L
Citric Acid QS 0.0%
Formula Procedure

Dissolve B in A. With smooth mechanical agitation, slowly blend C into AB. Mix until completely dispersed and uniform. Slowly blend D into system. Mix until uniform. Warm system to 40-45ºC with smooth mechanical agitation. Slowly blend E into heated system and mix until completely dissolved. In a separate mixing vessel, combine F. Mix into a soft slurry that is completely uniform. Slowly blend F into batch and mix until uniform. Slowly blend G into system. Mix until uniform. Slowly blend H into system. Mix until uniform. Remove heat. Slowly blend I into system. Mix until uniform. In a separate mixing vessel, combine J with mixing. Add J into batch with smooth agitation. Add compatible K to batch. 11 Adjust pH of system to 5.0-5.6 with L solution (50% aq.) as required. The system should thicken noticeably with the pH adjustment. Mix for at least 30 min to reach final consistency.

[David08848]

manstra, thanks for the suggestion!  I actually saw this listed with two other options on a site for cocamide DEA replacements.  It seems that only one company is making PEG-4 Rapeseedamide and that is KAO.  A company called “Lincoln Fine Ingredients” in Lincoln, Rhode Island (only a few miles from where I grew up in Mass.!) has it listed on their website.  I did find it in some ingredients lists so that’s a good sign!

Thanks!  David

[David08848]

Good to know!  I have an “older” sample that has become gold but I don’t have a problem with it.  As far as the fatty/soapy smell, I’ll have to open it and check it out but since I am going after a “soapy” type of body wash, it may not be a problem.  It also will be a secondary surfactant in the formula so I’ll give it a test run with one of the formulas and see how it works for me.

Thanks!

[David08848]

Belassi,  I agree with you about keeping it simple.  Each ingredient has got to have a purpose and label wow isn’t part of my philosophy!  Still, I want to have enough ingredients on the list so it is taken seriously.  I am always suspicious if a product has a really small ingredients list.

I checked out the Lamesoft PO-65 online which is available from resellers (The Chemistry Store) but I don’t want to use something I can only get from one supplier so I’ll check around and see what I find.  I am also considering using Crothix (for one of the products) as it has other characteristics besides thickening.

Thanks!

[David08848]

I have had more success lately finding “sample” formulas to begin with
so I’m starting to put together test formulas.  I found more “old”
formulas from some of the chemical companies like Innospec at the
Cosmetics & Toiletries site so that might be a good place to go if
you’re in my situation!  More makes it easier to compare and to see
patterns in the formulations.  Now I’m starting to think of additives
like polyquarternium-7 or 10, PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate, glycerin… any suggestions?

Thanks!
David

[David08848]

Folks,

I got a sample of Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate yesterday and boy it is thick!  I am still having some problems finding out info on Sodium Cocoamphoacetate and Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate!  Even the info that came along with the sample did not list the active percentage although it did list solids at around 47-49%.  Several listed “N/A” for the active percentage!!  I’ve also tried finding out the difference between the two but haven’t had any success, so far!

David

[David08848]

Perry, I’m sorry I wasn’t able to participate.  Please let us know how it went!

Thanks!
David

[David08848]

Thanks, Perry!

That sheds some new light on things!  It appears that my assumption was incorrect and in working with a product such as surfactants that are often available in a solution with water the formulator needs to take that into consideration when coming up with an ingredients list that accurately lists all ingredients placing “water” with “water” then placing the ingredient in the list according to it’s proper place determined by the percentage of the active ingredient.  Who knew!  I didn’t, that’s for sure!

I would then assume that a blend would also be listed in order of the percentages of the activity when labeled by the manufacturer?  If that is the case, then a list of ingredients on a blend should be a little easier to work with and to “guess” as far as the percentages of activity.  Is that correct, Perry?

So far, the products I have created, soap, liquid soap, shaving cream did not contain any ingredients that had any “actives” in them so that’s why I didn’t pick this up!  This is my first serious attempt working with anything involving surfactants so there’s a big learning curve!  Even though I have been “hanging out” at cosmetic chemistry boards for the last 15 years, there hasn’t been as much “activity” (pun intended) involving surfactants!  I’m glad there is more of that here and thankful to all for their help!  Thanks especially to you, Perry! (that explains why I have been seeing ingredients lists with surfactants near the very end of the list where I would not expect to find it! - all because it’s active is actually below 1%!  WOW!)

Regards, David

[David08848]

Mark,

I appreciate your reply.  As a retailer and manufacturer I don’t have the same experience  with marketers as you and others here might as cosmetic chemists, so I would not be aware of the negativity you experience because of it.  I do have customers ask whether my products are natural or organic but I do not set out to sell either of these types of products although a few of mine might be considered natural by some.  I also have heard some perceptions from a customer of what certain products should be or should contain but frankly it doesn’t happen very often.  Still, it is helpful to hear your experiences and perspectives on this issue and has helped me to understand the reactions of some here.

I see what you are saying about the interpretation of my use of the word chemical but I was not using it in either a negative or positive way rather just making the point that every ingredient of a product could benefit by a little scrutiny now and them.  I do feel, however, that for some the parenthesis for some may have drawn attention to the word so that they were more apt to consider in a negative context.  I assure that is not what I meant nor is it what I think or feel!

I also feel that marketing has caused many problems in the cosmetics field (and others) but I think the lack of education of the consumer is the bigger problem here.  I have dabbled in chemistry since the late 1990’s and know enough not to pay attention to the marketing but rather look at the ingredients list of a product to make my decision about whether to purchase it or not from that.  So I feel we would all benefit by acquiring a little knowledge about the products we use.  I do a lot of research about ingredients I am going to use to acquire as much knowledge as possible in order that I make the right decisions and choices.  I just wish others would do the same and if we had non-biased information available about these ingredients it would make things much easier!

David

[David08848]

Thanks David!  I did find some things that indicated that these are two different substances.  I also noticed that there were quite a few product ingredient labels on Google Image!  Another helpful resource, thank you! 

David

[David08848]

By “natural fragrance” do you mean essential oils?  If so which ones?   It will be helpful to know which ones you are using as some are known to cause issues like you are having.  (percentages are not necessary)

David

[David08848]

Gentlemen,

You haven’t posted anything that I am not already aware of.  I do not consider myself a “naturalist” and do not attempt to sell “all natural” products.  I simply stated that I feel it would be a good idea to look at what we are doing to ourselves and to our planet.  We have the knowledge now that we didn’t have centuries ago and we should use that knowledge to check what we have done, what we are doing and what we are going to do. 

Perry, if you reread my post above you will see I stated “Perry,  If we do analyze everything and find out about the good aspects
and the bad aspects we perhaps might learn more that we already know and
we as individuals and as a group can make better assessments of all of
these things and then can act upon them or not.”   In your last reply you stated “I would agree that we should continue to safety test and be open to new discoveries of harm.” which indicates to me that you understood what I said.  That really was my only point and you got it.  To all, please don’t put words in my mouth that I have not uttered, or ideas I have not expressed!  I am not putting down the use of chemicals, I am just suggesting we be more cautious about our usage.  That’s all! 

So right now I am going back to my project which is studying the use of “chemicals”  (would you have reacted less strongly if I had posted the word chemicals without a quote around it?) and seeing what I can come up with.  I am eager to learn more about the use of chemicals (in this case surfactants) and see if I can create a good, product that works well, pleases people who use it and doesn’t do any harm to them or to the planet.  Hopefully, we are on the same page now…

David

[David08848]

Given that technology changes and advances over time we may find out that some things we thought were safe for us actually are not.  That’s why I suggested that we should take a look at everything we have done in the past.  I can think of things like lead paint or asbestos that were created in a laboratory in the last century and I saw homes in my own neighborhood that had to deal with the lead paint and the asbestos shingles that were put up decades before. Even as a child growing up in the late 50’s and throughout the 1960’s many of these things came to light and we became aware of them through television and newspapers.

Yes, we and the Earth are all made up of chemicals but those occur in nature.  It’s when we decide to manipulate these natural chemicals that the possibility of creating something harmful can occur.  That is why I suggested taking the time to look at everything isn’t a bad idea!  Educating ourselves and the consumer is also a good idea.  I now think that doing away with that under 1% for marketing claims would be beneficial as well!  (See what you started, Perry! )  I’m teasing you, Perry but I have found that a little bit of knowledge can change your way of thinking.  I also think that is a good thing!  David is right in pointing out just how complicated and how much of a structure exists that is affected by all of these chemicals we are using.  I also became aware of the effects of these chemicals when I put up a post on Facebook about my body wash project and posted two pictures of samples from chemical companies!  When I looked at the pictures and saw the warnings on the bottle about possible damage to eyes while using these chemicals, I had to think quick and put up a post about the warnings being there because most of these are concentrated surfactants suggesting they would be diluted (most would be) in the final product, so yes, David, I know MSDS sheets and chemical data sheets and have seen firsthand the potential problems that can occur while using chemicals!  And yes, those microbeads we not such a great idea!  I believe is was fish that managed to be affected by those plastic microbeads but ultimately it is us that can be affected! 

Still in all, I think everyone here is trying their best to “do the right thing” and create innovative and interesting products and I support that.  I am also grateful that I can come here, ask questions and learn!  Really what I am suggesting is that we continue to keep our eyes open and watch and listen so we can make products that are as safe as we possibly can and if I had the money I would create an organization that would do just that!

David

[David08848]

Perry,  If we do analyze everything and find out about the good aspects and the bad aspects we perhaps might learn more that we already know and we as individuals and as a group can make better assessments of all of these things and then can act upon them or not.  My whole point of answering this hypothetical question is to get us to think more about what we’re doing and think more about these things as we go along.  I had to make judgements about my business and where I wanted it to go and what I wanted to include in my product line.  Could I have made a liquid soap without a preservative?  Yes, I could have as many do but I opted to use one for my own protection business-wise and for the protection of the customers.  I went through the same process when I decided to do my current project, body wash.   Your reply about using Vitamin E in small percentage as a “marketing claim” forced me to think about whether I wanted to do it or not.  I chose not to do it and will probably continue that philosophy in the future.  Having that knowledge (thank you!) was what was most important to me just as having as much knowledge as possible will help me to make the best choices possible!  That is really what I am after in making the suggestion I did to your query.  Even if we don’t do anything about it, we’ll at least have the knowledge!  

[David08848]

As a soapmaker, I have made myself aware of the fatty acid structure of all the oils and exotic butters I use in my soaps.  Many surfactants are also made from fatty acids and each one of them has a certain characteristic as a result.  Oleic Acid creates a soap that is more mild than other fatty acids.  Olive oil contains about 80-82% oleic acid and as such is considered mild when it is made into a soap whether it is with sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide.  I use olive oil in many of my soaps and I also use Oleic Acid in my liquid soap for that same purpose.  Keep in mind that is is the percentages of these oils in a blend that makes the difference.  If one were to use a high percentage of Coconut oil then the resultant soap would be irritating/drying to the skin but in a small percentage coconut oil can produce great lather.  Keep in mind that the balance of these oils is what created a long lasting, lathering and gentle soap!

[David08848]

I’m not bashing “chemicals” are you, Mark?  I just think it would be a wise move for an organization that is not connected to the government and not connected to the cosmetic industry to check out all substances that we are using in our daily lives and see if they are harmful in any way to humans and to the planet Earth.  If I had the money to do that, I would fund such an organization.

[David08848]

I would like to see research done on what all of these “chemicals” we all are using is doing to us and more importantly what they are doing to our planet!

[David08848]

Folks,

I am finding both Sodium Cocoamphoacetate and Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate as secondary surfactants but I am also seeing both listed as primary at the rate of 1-30, 4-40, up to 50% and others!  Usually chemical companies are somewhere in the ballpark but in this instance they are all over the place?  How common is this?

Thanks!
David

[David08848]

Robert,  You were lucky that you had all that available to you!  Through resellers online am able to pick up larger sizes of surfactants and have CAPB, Decyl Glucoside, SMC Taurate, Sodium Lauryl Sulphoacetate and more on-hand so that helps!  Some of the surfactants like Sodium Lauryl Methyl Isethionate came in a 32 oz. sample bottle so that helps especially since I have decided that I want that as my main surfactant!  When you order samples online from chemical companies you can always try asking for the largest size they offer and often they’ll comply!  You can also ask more than one company for the same chemical.  After all, you are a potential customer and you want to make sure what you are being offered is consistent from company to company as well as consistent from batch to batch!  I am at the point where I only order what I really think I will use and usually do my research ahead of time to make sure!

Your suggestion about selecting 3 or 4 ingredients is right up my alley and I tend to do that anyway.  What was most important was hearing from another source ” You’ve picked out 4 surfactants that should work well together” and that was the aim of this post so thanks for the observation that I seem to be on the right track!  I see what you mean when I look at formulas from each of the chemical companies - Colonial Chemicals seems to have a “connecting thread” from formula to formula as do other companies so it is totally logical that you could pick out the formulator from his or her formulation!

I also spent more time online looking up body wash and then listing names of surfactants like Sodium Lauryl Methyl Isethionate and SMC Taurate.  I was amazed at how many ingredients lists of products contained both and also interesting the “positioning” of the these ingredients in a formula.  After a while some patterns did seem to emerge and I saved all of the ingredients lists to compare!  The last thing I am going to do is to put together a final list of “the players” with observations about their purposes in a formula, their actives, their pH and some additives I might wish to include.  From there I can start “playing” with ingredients and see what I come up with!  I like your suggestion about zeroing in on a few surfactants and making them the base of some of your formulations.  It’s like when I was studying Music in college and as a singer, lyric baritone, I would learn new pieces and add them to my repertoire.  Here I am trying to emulate you great cosmetic chemists and add ingredients in my chemical repertoire to produce good products!

Thanks to all for the support and to Perry for heading up this great board!

David

[David08848]

Perry,  Thanks for the quick reply!  This makes sense.  Typically for a surfactant product what would be the best sample batch size to make keeping in mind that my samples for all of these surfactants are typically about 8 oz. with a couple being 16 oz. and a couple of 32 oz. bottles?

Thanks!
David…surrounded by surfactant bottles…
(there is more information on this site I didn’t even know existed!)

[David08848]

Aurora,

I always appreciate it when someone take the time to answer at length!  Thank you!.  I tend to do a great deal of research before I tackle something.  When I began soapmaking in 2000 I ended up doing research for a year before I tried anything.  As a result I developed a method of formulating which I use to this day and my first batch of soap was perfect.  It was the same for my shaving cream which I introduced this past Summer.  What is interesting is that I followed some of the same techniques that Perry mentions in his last three videos i.e. looking for similar formulations to start with, researching current products online to get ingredients lists, going to the US and other patent sites from all over the world as well as checking out cosmetic chemisty formulations in books, online, from chemical companies and the like.  Perry’s last three videos have been helpful in this process!  I have found some formulations, surfactant blends and recommendations for ingredient “positioning” in a formula from these places and answers to some of my posts here have been helpful in making sure I don’t head down the wrong path with a surfactant that doesn’t deliver what I need.  The other thing that became more obvious from your post is that I need to think of Body Wash and Bubble Bath as two separate projects even though I am hoping they will have surfactants in common for ease of formulating as well as from an investment standpoint!  The less pails (and upcharges!) I have to pay for, the better!  (the point that some of these surfactants may not produce the type of foam/lather needed is well taken which is another reason for the bubble bath to take a back seat for the moment!  Thanks!)

As far a formulating with the isethionates and taurates, they both come in various forms from hard prills and little chunks to pastes, powders and viscous liquids!  Collecting, cataloging as well as reviewing and understanding all the information has been overwhelming but your suggestion to start with a couple then add others as needed makes sense in that aspect so I will give it a try!  As far as the skin-feel aspect of a product, I also grew up in a time (from the late 50’s, throughout the 1960s) when being and feeling  “clean” was foremost, so I can identify with that!  The hardest part of this project for me is that I don’t use body wash!  That will make it a bit more difficult for me but I’ll do my best!

Perry, as far as your suggestion to “blind test”, I’ve looked it up online but not here yet so if there are any posts that go into it in more detail let me know!  There are articles on formulation here on this site and even on formulating body washes that I have read and kept for reference as well as on other Cosmetic site which have been very beneficial!  Now if we could only get you to teach separate formulating courses including one on surfactants then I would be in better shape!

What is positive so far is that at least on paper the ingredients I am concentrating on seem to be ones that will so together so that helps and it means I am headed in a positive direction!  Thanks for listening, thinking and sharing!

David
Stone Cottage Soapworks Inc.