[Cafe33]

Agustinabruni said:

Also, the clay doesn’t fully integrate with the oils and just falls to the bottom of the bar while cooling.

Thank you for your help! xoxo

Perhaps this is causing the blotchy part of the conditioner. Either way there is really no place for clays in solid conditioner bars.  Why do you wish to replace BTMS? If it is a matter of cost, a conditioner bar can work very well with a very high level of fatty alcohols without using high levels of butters and oils. Also, BTMS-25 is less expensive than the 50 version and works very well.  

I generally start with 60% BTMS-25 and 10-15% Cetyl Alcohol. The rest is butters (3-5%), vegetable oils (3-5%), CCT (3-5%) and esters (~10%) (Natrasil for natural story)

[Cafe33]

So you are trying to create an emulsion without an actual emulsifier? How is that suppose to work? 

[Cafe33]

How would it have benefited AMA to cheat on testing? Was it just poor work ethic? I feel like I am missing something…

[Cafe33]

Yes, I learned this from people like Perry on this forum. I shouldn’t have been surprised as I came from the nutritional supplement world and have witnessed a few similar situations. What you and I call “big companies” are considered small when compared to large corporations such as L’Oreal and P&G. They can get away with it, up until they don’t…

[Cafe33]

The simple answer is that it is done for marketing. The LOI you listed should not be trusted anyway as it is most likely missing some ingredients and not in the appropriate order. They are most likely using potassium salts of shea and coconut oils with synthetic detergents. Dr Bronner promotes the concept of using saponified oils as the only soap/detergent you will ever need. I have seen indications of using it for dishes, laundry etc. In reality, soap should be limited to cleaning the body. It is not recommended for hair. 

The LOI posted is really just meant to create a “natural” product augmented with synthetic detergents. Customers think they are literally shampooing with shea and coconut oils.    

[Cafe33]

One CAS number, one distinct compound. 

[Cafe33]

The shampoo bar you listed will not work well for many reasons. You can make a very good shampoo bar but the main issues will be structural integrity and how it will dry after use. Most of them turn to mush after a few uses.

The other issue is that it requires quick and dense foaming as the user will always apply too much until they are more educated in how these products really work. The foam is a visual indication to the user that enough product is in the hair.

SCI is very expensive and especially if the product falls into pieces after two weeks. The main challenge is to make a bar that will actually deliver proper cleaning, manageability and stay actually stay in bar form. Here’s a picture of a used shampoo bar with around 60 washes under its belt by a person with very thick shoulder length hair. It has been used for around 10-11 weeks so far. The starting weight was 85 g and now it is around 25 g. It is staying solid and drying well simply placed directly on the shower rack. I think it will start to breakdown at around 10-12 g or so.

       

[Cafe33]

Perhaps it is used because of its ability to emulsify silicones? 

[Cafe33]

I bought stearic acid in powder form but never used it. 

I use mainly SCI, SCS and sodium stearate in my syndet bars (which I guess you could say is a “combo” bar)

[Cafe33]

Are you aware on how to form an emulsion? I am asking because I have noticed some unusual questions in different threads you started like oil and water ratio related to BTMS amount. BTMS is the easiest emulsifier I have ever worked with. It was the first emulsion I formed before I had an appropriate mixer, using a small hand whisk and a bowl. 1.5 years later, that small batch has not separated. 

I am sorry to say that you are missing some crucial info and research. I recommend swiftcraftmonkey’s blog. She is great for introduction to certain concepts and she does have some formulations for you to follow (some with BTMS).    

And I use 2-5% BTMS-50 in formulations.

[Cafe33]

Climatechangeanxiety said:

i melt it in the coconut oil over a double boiler, then combine with the other surfactants. are you suggesting it could be the culprit depending on the way i prepare it? @Cafe33

I have never seen stearic acid used in a shampoo/body wash without an emulsifier. I remember making a pre shave cream and in one rendition my stearic acid ratio was too high compared to my soap (potassium stearate) concentration and I have never itched so much in my life. 

I am not experienced enough to tell you definitely that it would be the stearic acid but I do know that it has no place in your shampoo. The data you provided is interesting as the itchiness decreases as you increase your surfactant level which typically should be the opposite. Perhaps the increased surfactant concentration is aiding in properly rinsing off the stearic acid ? 

I really don’t know but I do know that the stearic acid has no place in this formula. I would remove the stearic acid/coconut oil and start over.   

[Cafe33]

Graillotion said:

Cafe33 said:

.

  Yet we have been attacked so far for using cetyl alcohol in our products 

I had not heard of cetyl alcohol being on any ‘naughty lists’.  Are these the people that think anything with the word ‘alcohol’….is drying?

It makes the list with some because of it’s association with palm.

[Cafe33]

How are you adding stearic acid to your shampoo? 

[Cafe33]

Is this a singular component for you to suggest purification by vacuum distillation?

You will have to think of a drying step after steam distillation, one that does not effect the oil. Maybe you can find a book about the subject.

[Cafe33]

I don’t think trying to educate the masses on social media is a good use of your time or potentially successful in any way unless you have multi million dollar budget for it.

You simply have to decide what marketing angle you are taking and stay within that range. Most people buy products based on fragrance. You simply cannot please everybody, so you have to formulate and promote products in an almost political manner. You can be to one extreme where everything is bad and dangerous and lean on those “ideals” and you will pick up the fringe clientele. We chose to be somewhere in the middle with our brand. No parabens, no SLS, sustainable packaging…  Yet we have been attacked so far for using cetyl alcohol in our products and more recently sodium chloride. We will always be attacked about something, it is just the nature of the business and social media. 

I find the “fragrance-free” claim absolutely hilarious. In many products, fragrance is the most expensive component and in many cases it is the most difficult to formulate into a product.

[Cafe33]

The formula you have listed will give you a solid product and not a powdery mess. Perhaps your technique needs review.

Are you using powdered SCI? 

For the following test, keep the Kaolin Clay out of your formula. If you insist on using it, try it once you have succeeded and add it to the powdered surfactant phase. Also, keep the EO out of formula for now. Replace 1% of each ingredient with 1% SLSa and 1% Jojoba Oil.  

Mix the SCI with the SLSa and add CAPB/Sodium Lactate. If you are doing this by hand, mix slowly and massage the mass until it starts forming a ball and slightly pasty. You have to allow the binder to actually bind the ingredients together. You must continually mix until this happens. IMO, this is most likely where the failure occurred.

I am assuming you do not have machines/mixers for this. So form a uniform ball and then break it apart into smaller pieces.  

Heat the BTMS, stearic acid, cetyl alcohol, jojoba oil together and add it to your paste (broken down in smaller “chunks”) in portions, mixing and massaging the mass together. Make sure you can continually warm your oil phase before each addition. 

I used this technique during initial testing phase, making 100g at a time using a glass bowl until I eventually moved on to large mixers and other equipment. If you feel like some of the BTMS phase cooled down on the glass bowl when it was incorporated in the mix, you can slightly warm the outside of the bowl very quickly with a double broiler and mix the paste some more. 

Upon cooling, it will harden significantly

[Cafe33]

Start with a base formula without the preservative. Try it and see how it performs and how it dries and if it stays cohesive. Then introduce the preservative and do the same. My general feeling is it will weaken the bar because of the glycerin. I have tried preservatives with 0.1-0.3% Propylene Glycol and it was a complete failure in terms of bar structure. Let us know how it goes.   

[Cafe33]

Shampoo bars are mostly terribly underperforming on the market. The most successful company uses decyl glucoside instead of CAPB and there are complaints that it goes to “mush” very quickly. I would never call them professional. Customers with the “zero waste” philosophy are willing to tolerate bad products as long as the marketing story is correct. 

I have done over 100 separate/unique shampoo bars/Syndet bar formulations to arrive at the conclusions I have given you.    

The main issue is that people formulating shampoo bars view them as shampoo bars as if it is a unique category. They follow the rules of syndet bars and compressed solid products. These guidelines have already been established decades ago. 

All the commercial syndet bars and liquid shampoos on the market use multiple surfactants. The idea that SCI alone will clean your hair properly is laughable.  

If you plan on adding an ingredient which is not traditionally found in classic syndet/combo bars and compressed solids (tablets), you need to add that ingredient to an established base formula and see how it goes and that includes something like a preservative.

[Cafe33]

Well, you cannot use anything with propylene glycol if you want your bar to stay strong. Even 0.3% is enough to render the bar structurally weak. Keep that in mind as many liquid preservatives use propylene glycol as a solvent.  

[Cafe33]

Sodium Lactate (CAS#:72-17-3)

[Cafe33]

Here in Mexico, you see SPF 50 everywhere. The people I have met disregard anything below that level of protection. They use “matte effect” 50 SPF cream just to leave the house. Not for going on the beach. 

In Canada, you see every SPF level and usually SPF 30 is used. Many people go out of their way to look darker and tanned. Some will use SPF 15 in order to get some protection and a tan (as they say anyway). My friend who visited from Canada brought tanning lotion for the beach. 

[Cafe33]

I don’t think you will find better than SLSa for your requirements. You can use more than 50% SCI. Your pH should be acidic/near neutral with the use of this surfactant combination.

Also you have 11% CAPB which contains 7,7% water. The typical usage of water as a binder in syndet bars is 5-6 %. You can use some NaCl to lower the activity of some of that water. A good starting point would be 0.35% - 0.50%. Place it in the CAPB and heat it gently with slow stirring so it doesn’t foam too much. You don’t need much heat. Do a test ahead of time and see how much will dissolve in the CAPB. Make sure you allow it to reach room temp to see if crystals will fall out. Start with 0.35%. This will allow your bar to dry a little faster after use and will help in hardness. 

SCI up to 53%

SLSa 17%

CAPB 11%

NaCl 0.35 - 0.50%
Sodium Lactate 2%
Panthenol 1%

BTMS 25 6%
Cetyl alcohol 4%
Stearic acid 3%
Jojaba oil 1%

Essential oil 1%

Eco preservative 0.5%

What is your eco preservative? Ideally, your preservative would be something you can dissolve in the CAPB liquid phase as it will spread better. 

[Cafe33]

Thank you all this is great advice. I am limited with the emulsifiers available to me from re-packers here in Mexico. When I saw Olivem 1000 finally available from a reputable source, I ordered some right way. I think I did see cetyl palmitate from a supplier… but it is quite challenging here, they don’t have nice e-commerce layouts like lotioncrafter so you often time have to figure out what they have yourself. We once called for a listed ingredient and they told us they haven’t sold it since 2002… yet it stays in the catalog online… 

[Cafe33]

Yasmin123 said:

Thankyou for your response. 

So using 1g of powdered Panthenol is ok?

Yes

Why can’t I use cetearyl alcohol with BTMS 25?

BTMS-25 already contains 75% cetearyl alcohol. Adding more would result in a draggy feel. Cetyl alcohol is a better choice in this case. 

I will add stearic acid. I’m guessing this will have to be melted with the other hard ingredients?

Yes

I add the clay for colouring, is this still ok?

Not recommended 

I have read so many formulas with a high percentage of Shea butter but I will try using less.

For a shampoo, the best is 0% Shea butter or any vegetable oil/butter. This is the most important thing I have learned from this forum.  

The sodium lactate, do I need to buy this is liquid or powder form? I have read about it and it sounds great! Will this be in place of glycerin and decyl glycoside?

If you can find the powdered version, use 1.2% by weight. The liquid version is easier to find, use 2.0% by weight. It is a humectant like glycerin, however we are using it because it strengthens bars. 

I want my shampoo to be sulfate free, I have read a lot about sodium coco sulfate and I’m not keen on the sound of it. 

SLSa will work, but definitely not as well 

What if I was to put 1% decyl glucoside in the bar would that be ok? (I love the sound of this ingredient)

You are certainly free to test your formulation with 1% Decyl glucoside but I would not advise it based on what I have experienced. 

How does this formula sound?

SCI 50%
(need another dry surfactant?) 20%
CAPB 9.5%

Cetearyl alcohol 4%

BTMS - 25 4%
Stearic acid 3%

Shea butter 2%
Sodium lactate 2%

Kaolin clay 1%
Decyl glycoside 1%

Jojoba oil 1%
Panthenol 1%

Essential oil 1%

Eco preservative 0.5%

Getting better. You can raise the CAPB level to 10-11% with no issues. Keep the BTMS-25 at 6% like you had it. Keeps the bar strong and aids in compression.

Thank you so much for your time and help with this! You might laugh out loud again when you read this formula but I’m learning so I’m not sure if this is right!

I was only laughing at myself really ! I used to add 3% cacao butter and other oils to shampoo bars but when someone actually points it out to you, its completely backwards. Shampoo removes oils, that’s kind of the point of a surfactant system. Vegetables oils do not stay on hair after a wash. Perhaps some esters and other modified oils with higher log P values might, but that is out of the scope of natural shampoo bar formulations. 

[Cafe33]

Actually, your question has been answered repeatedly on this very thread. There are many issues with your formulation.

Glyceryl Stearate is NOT a self emulsifying system. It is usually paired with a high HLB compound to a create an emulsion. What you probably have is some kind of thickened mix somehow being held together by the large amount of xanthan gum and glyceryl stearate you are using.