[Cafe33]

Tetrasodium EDTA dissolves readily in water without applying heat. Very easy to use.

[Cafe33]

You may find the Manda Organic Sun Paste interesting.

Manda Organic Sun Paste (SPF 50) ingredients (Explained) (incidecoder.com)

Active Ingredients: Non-Nano Zinc Oxide (20%)

Inactive Ingredients: Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Beeswax, Organic Cocoa Butter, Thanaka, Organic Cacao Powder, Organic Shea Butter, Organic Cinnamon Oil

20% Zinc Oxide in Coconut oil, Beeswax and Cocoa Butter with an SPF 50 Rating. Not even a single ester in the formula.

[Cafe33]

Carbopol ETD 2020 is closer to Ultrez 10 in the way it behaves. There are two options to avoid fish eyes. If you proceed in the same way as when you are formulating with ultrez 20, you will most likely get the fish eyes. The first option is to create a 2% dispersion to avoid separation (you will notice that it tends to separate to a top layer). The second and simpler option is to partially neutralize BEFORE the addition of surfactants. 10% of the total alkaline base you intended to use. pH will be 3.8 - 4.0. Once partially neutralized, proceed as you would with Ultrez 20, anionics etc

[Cafe33]

Carbopol ETD 2020 - Changed everything for me. I use around 0.6-0.7 % depending on the formula. I have a couple of bottle of shampoo trials, should be around 1.5 years old. They sit in different showers and not a hint of separation and they are loaded with surfactants and 1.5% Fragrance. That is the best tip I can give you. It is a little finicky to use and tends to clump up if you do not follow instructions very carefully.

[Cafe33]

Then I would answer you by asking why you would want to reverse engineer such a product which does even conform to proper norms ? Do you really think it will be something out of the ordinary? Some textures and rheologies are more difficult to reproduce since they require an understanding and experience with more specialized levels ingredients. Typically, it’s nothing an experienced formulator would not be able to do.

[Cafe33]

I am assuming this is all oil ? I admit I am not familiar with chamomile oleates. Sterile filtration can be performed using microporous membranes filters with a pore size of 0.22 µm or smaller like 0.1 μm.

Not exactly practical. Oily injectable products are produced this way with benzyl alcohol or chlorobutanol as a preservative. The older standard of 0.45 μm could be sufficient for your purposes and will flow a whole lot better.

[Cafe33]

The Proraso preshave cream/balm was my go to for years before I ever formulated a single cosmetic product. It was absolutely necessary for me because I have coarse facial hair and suffer from irritation. I did reverse engineer it and it works very well. I used colloidal oat and menthol.

[Cafe33]

I found that removing CETAC from my formula which contained BTMS had absolutely no change in end results. Once I scaled my production to mixing tanks, CETAC + BTMS would tend to make the final product clumpy. I did not want to purchase a different mixing tank with better mixing so I experimented with removing the CETAC an it worked great. I also use Amodimethicone but as a stand alone ingredient.

Perhaps the mixture you are using with Trideceth12 will not create the clumping effect (I never tried it) however

1. CETAC added absolutely nothing in my formula already containing BTMS.

2. Amodimethicone was a gamechanger for a very finicky salon client (Added to BTMS/Dimethicone)

[Cafe33]

Not to derail the conversation but customers want fragrances. Through and through they select fragrances over essential oils. We had a group of customer who came to visit our facilities here in Mexico all the way from Switzerland and they had a hugely developed natural story for their brand. They are Tulum like people, mother earth, bamboo everything, natural and organic everything. I prepared my team not to suggest anything that does not fit the “natural/earthy” tag.

Result: they selected a creamy coconut (synthetic) which they found to be natural “smelling”, Vanilla (synthetic), Chocolate (Synthetic) and a list of other sweet and sometimes fruity scents with a few essential oils blends. They even picked a herbal shampoo fragrance I personally detest. We experienced the same phenomenon with a Canadian customer who is a zero waste influencer (composting /, recycled toilet paper, etc).

I started with essential oils only and found out very quickly that ultimately most “naturally-inclined” people do not care.

[Cafe33]

If you are talking about a Shampoo and Conditioner, the process can be fairly simple based on the ingredient list. If a formulator understands how certain ingredients are used and typically at what inputs they are used; a formula can be duplicated with good accuracy.

[Cafe33]

I do not have that issue using Mag Hydroxide, Arrowroot Starch and Kaolin Clay. I use Cetyl Alcohol and Candelilla wax along with zinc ricinoleate.

[Cafe33]

So I have gone ahead with the formulation and it was well received by the Hair Salons that carry my products. 12.0-12.5% of dimethiconol was the final input.

[Cafe33]

Ingredients to never put in a shampoo bar:

Glycerin

Propylene Glycol

D-Panthenol

Colloidal Oat (Even in close to claim ingredient levels it can snap bars in half)

Oils and Butters (use only claim ingredient levels 0.01-0.10 %)

Now, “Shampoo bars” are simply syndet bars which are applied to hair. Now would you wash your hair with clay, butters and oils? Mango powder? Or whatever else you can think of putting in? The point of washing your hair is to remove dirt and oil; not add more of it.

A successful shampoo bar is a syndet bar which is lower in waxes so it can slide properly on hair and not be so “greasy or heavy”. It is difficult to process at scale since it is not as malleable as soap. Adding humectants to a shampoo bar is counter productive as it will not have the structural integrity to deal with any absorbed water. (It can turn into mush very easily)

[Cafe33]

Have you thought about adding Lamesoft PO 65? It will have a slight thickening effect and adds a nice feel to the shampoo. Not too discourage you but 5% SCI is typically needs a anionic co surfactant(s) to work sufficiently well. If you have the budget consider adding SLSa, it is highly soluble and according to some Stepan literature, it stabilizes SCI in solution.

The glycerin is pointless.

[Cafe33]

Remove Polyquats from your formula. They will offer no added benefit and they tend to weaken the structure of your bar. In general, try to get closer to 70% in powdered surfactants. Drop oils and butters to 0.1% or less of each.  

[Cafe33]

@Abdullah, it might be a bit of a challenge using SLES and trying to create a good skin feel. I am by no means an expert but all of my attempt were failures. I switched to a different surfactant system using Sarcosinate, Decyl Glucoside, CAPB with some Lamesoft PO 65 or some PEG 7 Glyceryl Oleate. You will have to thicken it of course. I found Ultrez 20 to work well but it might make the price of your formula too high. 

[Cafe33]

Are you open to changing your surfactant system? 

Also, Polyquat-39 can be an impressive addition in my experience. 

[Cafe33]

I am using 10% Propylene Glycol and 20% Ethoxydiglycol 

[Cafe33]

BTMS-25 is one of the main ingredients I use and yes its normal to be too thick to mix using typical mixing especially when combined with GMS. It will also achieve its close to final viscosity fairly quickly. I use an Anchor style paddle for mixing. As an emulsifier, I found it to be immensely stable, I have never had a sample separate even with poor mixing technique. 

[Cafe33]

Hi @MarkBroussard, HMW Hyaluronic Acid was used at 0.20 and 0.25% and it was not sufficient. I also used Xanthan gum + HA and it was a little stickier than I wanted. Drunk Elephant uses HEC + Xanthan + HA and both versions I created with the same system thicken well and are much more pleasant and less sticky. 

[Cafe33]

chemicalmatt said:

 You say 10% AHA? Good luck with that.

Not a comfortable feeling when @chemicalmatt says Good luck with that. It seems to be a success so far but no stability testing has taken place yet. Can you please elaborate? Do you think there will be a pH shift that needs to be addressed? And if so, in which direction ? I am using Geogard Ultra + Sodium Citrate + Phenoxyethanol as my perservation system. 

[Cafe33]

Have you thought about using a solid surfactant without the addition of water?

[Cafe33]

No it will not. Ultrez 20 is not suitable for Shampoo. I ran trials before coming to that conclusion since it would have been a savings for us not to invest in another type of Carbopol.

[Cafe33]

PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate - I would highly recommend to avoid this ingredient in Sulfate free Hair Products. Once it is added at over 2.0% in a formula it is extremely difficult to rinse out especially in sulfate free shampoos. Very sticky. It also does not provide stability like acrylic copolymers. I endured a lot of formula separation.

[Cafe33]

I must confess, I struggled to piece together the details in this thread, and my insomnia didn’t make it any easier. I understand you’re seeking analytical testing services. Having lived in Canada, I’ve had experience with such services in the past, albeit in a different industry. One potential lead I can offer is Gelda Pharmaceuticals, found at Gelda.com. They specialize in compressed solids and offer in-house microbial testing. Additionally, I believe they were in the process of acquiring spectrometry equipment. I dealt with them between 2003-2012. They routinely do analytical testing as they have an OTC drug license. If they can’t help you directly they may be able to steer you the right way. What I really liked about Gelda is that they never engaged in price gauging like some many do. Also, I do not believe your project will be feasible. It is one thing to test for purity and 2-4 compounds mixture but a cosmetic product could amount to 30-100 different compounds. Even a listed ingredient could have 3-4 compounds. Many are not pure compounds. Never mind the fragrance which could contain 15-20.