[Anca_Formulator]

MarkBroussard said:

@Anca_Formulator:

I can’t tell from the way you worded your description, but to clarify.  You should be first dispersing your lamellar emulsifier in the water phase where it forms the structure and then adding your oil phase to the water phase that contains the lamellar emulsifier.

I develop the Siligel in the water phase while heating. I heat both phases to 75-80 C. Heliosoft goes in the oil phase. I emulsify the oil phase in the water phase for 2 minutes (I’m making small test batches) Then I switch to overhead mixer at medium speed, all the way down to RT. I add cool-down at 35 C. 
When does the lamellar network start forming, and when is it robust enough to tolerate shear?  

[Anca_Formulator]

DAS said:

No shear, low speed mixing with anchor blade with scrappers is the standard. Otherwise aeration is a nightmare.

Thank you. I tried the overhead stir-only to incorporate 3% oil at 35 C.

I used a microscope to look at particle size. It looked like there were some bigger particles among small ones, compared to the same emulsion with nothing added during cool down. Aren’t those bigger droplets more likely to cause instability? Thank you. 

[Anca_Formulator]

@Graillotion said:

So something like Siligel, which has a very small amount of pullulan…were you still finding pilling?  Did you ever test Siligel?

I created a couple of emulsions with Siligel (1% ) and compared their skin feel to the same emulsion made with with Solagum AX (0.3%). I noticed that both emulsions with Siligel pilled, while the one with Solagum AX didn’t (it was also much thinner). 

I also made a few emulsions with Ecogel (INCI: Lysolecithin, Xantham, Sclerotium and Pullulan) at 1.5% and didn’t notice any pilling. The backbone of this set was *almost* identical to the ones above. All emulsions had a 15% oil phase. 

I know it’s hard to compare when all the percentages were different (the aim of my experiments was not to compare the thickeners specifically). Nonetheless, it’s interesting that Ecogel at 1.5% didn’t pill, despite containing pullulan. 

The only difference between Siligel and Ecogel is lecithin vs lysolecithin (maybe also the percentages of pullulan?). 
So why would one pill and not the other? 
 

[Anca_Formulator]

Re. X-gum + Sclerotium synergy and Siligel/Ecogel 

VeGelPlus (Xanthan Gum (and) Lecithin (and) Sclerotium Gum (and) Carrageenan (and) Silica) by KimiKa has the gum synergy blend suggested above, and has a phospholipid (I do very much like the skinfeel of phospholipids). Not a chemist, so I’m not sure how Silica plays with the gums and the phospholipids here  (any thoughts?)

Has anyone tried this ingredient?

I wonder if this could be THE synergy. I just came across this ingredient, so I haven’t tried it yet, but I will try to get a sample and report back. 

[Anca_Formulator]

@Graillotion: Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. Some of it goes over my head as I am not a chemist either, but some of it makes sense

[Anca_Formulator]

Anca_Formulator said:

Graillotion said:

When I read the title….I said to myself….bet there is squalane in formula.

Believe the technical term is: syneresis.

Hemi-squalane is supposed to be a non polar C15, so technically it shouldn’t cause syneresis when it’s mixed with other non-polar oils. Why does squalane cause syneresis (it’s also technically non-polar)?

[Anca_Formulator]

Graillotion said:

Just guessing…but if Hemisqualane is anything like squalane….that typically causes that issue.

Try making it once without Hemisqualane…guessing issue will be Gone.

When I read the title….I said to myself….bet there is squalane in formula.

Believe the technical term is: syneresis.

Thank you so much for your suggestion. I will give that a try. But why does squalane sweat?

[Anca_Formulator]

Thank you so much. That makes sense. It’s around 72 here, but the temp can fluctuate to around 76. I’ll give that a try. 

[Anca_Formulator]

I don’t know which one would be a good substitute without testing the skin feel. When I substitute esters I test the spreadability, volatility, greasiness, absorbtion rate and play time. I also try to match the specific gravity as closely as possible. 

[Anca_Formulator]

CedarS said:

Not sure we could help - We’re located in Texas, so if you’re supplying the raw materials you’d have to ship them here - but what size batch does this come to in kilograms? 

Thank you so much for your offer. We are talking 30kg batches of facial moisturizer (emulsion), packed in 60 ml pump bottles. 

[Anca_Formulator]

SlingerD said:

Sent you a message!

Thank you so much!

[Anca_Formulator]

Perry said:

I removed the duplicate posts. In the future, just contact me to delete anything.

Thank you, will do

[Anca_Formulator]

Thank you so much

[Anca_Formulator]

@kot: I got a free sample through UL Prospector. 
No, you don’t have to hydrate it. It goes in the oil phase. Very easy to work with. 

[Anca_Formulator]

I LOVE this emulsifier. the skin feel is totally unique, light but unctuous and velvety powder dry down.

[Anca_Formulator]

@Abdullah Unfortunately I don’t.

[Anca_Formulator]

Hi Abdullah, thank you.

 Polyaquol is so cool, it can create a wide range of viscosities, from thin emulsions to some very nice rich creams when you increase the oil phase to around 20%. Adding a fatty alcohol doesn’t change the viscosity much, but it makes for even nicer texture. Same for adding something like rice bran wax or myrica fruit wax. 
Here is a ton of info for this emulsifier:

http://innovacos.com/ingredients/formulience-2/polyaquol-2w/

[Anca_Formulator]

@ Abdullah: Thank you for your suggestion. I hadn’t heard of this emulsifier and it sounds like an interesting one. It’s cold processable!  In your experience, are cold process emulsions as stable as the liquid crystal ones?

[Anca_Formulator]

Thank you! I will try it in water. t’s supposed to yield lower viscosity in water than in oil, so that frees me up to increase the oil phase a tad. 
Yes, Polyaquol can create very low viscosity emulsions, but not sprayable. It’s self-emulsifying, so you can make an oil-less emulsion, with just water soluble ingredients and the emulsifier. Never heard of Emulsan, thanks for the tip, I’ll look into it. 

[Anca_Formulator]

Thank you ggpetrov. I don’t do synthetic but I can replace the Moringa with Avocado. 

I chose PolyAquol 2W because I was attracted to the liquid crystal nature that is supposed to be highly stable. Not sure what your motivation was for choosing PolyAquol, but did you find another natural emulsifier you liked better?

[Anca_Formulator]

What everyone above suggested. Also IMHO Cetearyl Alcohol doesn’t have the nices skin feel, it’s got some waxiness. Maybe try Cetyl Alcohol instead. Speaking of locking in moisture I would also including a more lubricious, slow absorbing oil, such as avocado for example. 

[Anca_Formulator]

Try adding an ester, or a small amount of Cera Bellina

[Anca_Formulator]

You can add a butter with a higher melting point, such as cocoa butter. Or you can add 5 % of fatty alcohols with higher melting points, like cetyl or behenyl alcohol (158 F) also helps. If not enough, increase percentage gradually. Also Cera Bellina works.Then there is Softisan 378 (Glyceryl Stearate (and) Stearyl Alcohol (and) Polyglyceryl-2 Stearate) which also works. Good luck!

[Anca_Formulator]

Thickeners and stabilizers such as gums and fatty alcohols. Use the right amount of shear recommended for the specific emulsifier you are using. If there are any elctrolytes (aloe vera, sodium lactate, sodium PCA) in your formula, make sure the emulsifier can handle them. Similarly, make sure the ingredients are compatibel with each other. For example, don’t use anionic gums for cationic emulsions etc