[Anca_Formulator]

Help please! This is the third batch I made and the pH the next day is 1.5 points higher. The difference in temperature is from 65 F to 63, so not huge. I calibrate the pH meter every time I use it. What is going on here? Like I said there is 0.2% sodium phytate in it.

[Anca_Formulator]

Hi,

I was struggling with the same questions recently, but learned (from Susan Barclay Nichols, aka Swift Crafty Monkey) that you CAN mix anionic with cationic in SOLID formulations that do not contain water. If you try to mix them in a liquid cleanser, you get a complex/precipitate, as ketchito said.

• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anca_Formulator.
• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anca_Formulator.

[Anca_Formulator]

I like these guys for the story of the ingredients and highlighting the producers ad makers of the entire supply chain: flamingoestate.com

[Anca_Formulator]

Please see photos below:

[Anca_Formulator]

@coco: Yikes!! I’m quite anxious myself to see what the EOs I’ve tried are doing to stability. In progress. Will report back…

[Anca_Formulator]

@nycj. What @Abdullah said, and the other super important function is to buffer pH from drifting, which improves stability.

[Anca_Formulator]

@coco This is my favorite emulsifier. I have made probably close to 100 emulsions with it and I’ve never had it separate (mind you only 3 out of those had essential oils and they are currently undergoing stability, so far so good, but I’ll report back). I’ve attached the mfg guidelines @Graillotion quoted which also has a tips and tricks section…

But as others said, I make absolutely sure there’s nothing in it that could destabilize it and I bolster the heck out of it with a co-emulsifier (gelling agent), fatty alcohol, plenty of humectants to bind water. I also use sodium phytate at 0.2% and Siligel at 1%.

So let’s go through the potential destabilizers:

1. Is your hydrosol or any of your water-soluble ingredients/extracts preserved with Leucidal (lactobacillus ferment)? Your hydrolized protein?

2. It doesn’t tolerate electrolytes well, so Na Phytate is all I have in mine.  Geogard has sodium in it.

3. I put all of my oils in the hot oil phase, I don’t add them during cool down. I do have a couple of heat sensitive oils, but I add them at the tail end of the hot oil phase. Natrasil can also go in the hot oil phase.

4. The Geogard/Euxyl combo you are using is most effective at lower pH (4.8-5). Heliosoft is destabilized at ph lower than 5. I tried this preservative combo and it wasn’t stable…pH of 4.8 is a fail. 

So try these firtst adn then see of your EO still gives you trouble. Some, not all EOs can destabilize it, but it’s trial and error…

Hope this helps. good luck. 

[Anca_Formulator]

@EVchem No, I opened the jug and did a paddle culture right after opening. It is the paddle culture that developed  the nasties after 3 months.

[Anca_Formulator]

@Pharma THANK YOU so much for taking the time to respond in such great detail. I’ve learned so much from your post. 

When you say add the EOs to an oil phase, and add the lamellar structure builders as a separate phase, I’m assuming you mean add the EOs to a cool-down oil phase since most EOs have lower flash points than the hot oil phase.

Should I briefly homogenize at the end of cool-down in order to ensure EO’s are incorporated properly?

Thank you!

[Anca_Formulator]

@Graillotion: Interesting question. Following. 

[Anca_Formulator]

@helenhelen  I really appreciate your input on this. Some very neat suggestions. I will try them and report back!

 Which Versagel? There are several made with those 2 copolymers. I think the one you are referring to is the ME 500 T? MN750 looks interesting too (Isononyl Isononanoate (and) Ethylene/Propylene/Styrene Copolymer (and) Butylene/Ethylene/Styrene Copolymer)

I discovered that cushiony feeling when I tried Laneige overnight lip mask (I got a free sample at Sephora as I was perusing the ‘clean beauty’ shelves). I was surprised how much I liked it.   

https://us.laneige.com/products/lip-sleeping-mask?gclid=Cj0KCQjw_7KXBhCoARIsAPdPTfhBApIKCBlNSdCf20MUyC7OhMdpf2Sw2ZimFUHvxEuHaYBXg2i352MaArFiEALw_wcB

[Anca_Formulator]

@Graillotion: Bork bork bork! (swedish Chef)  😉

Thank you for your input. I have a lot of esters so down the rabbit hole I went with a number of combinations/permutations.

I made a few versions with things like Natrasil (Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables), Pomegranate Seed Oil (so luscious) and Pomegranate Sterols, Cera Bellina,
Berry wax, Myrica Fruit Wax, Myristyl Myristate, Sensolene (Ethylhexyl Olivate), Jojoba Esters 30 and 60…

The sensory part that’s giving me trouble is whatever gives it that cushiony occlusive coating at the end  that feels like lip gloss. I assume that’s the high viscosity silicone ? It’s the kiss of dimethcone/cyclomethicone that turns the frog into a prince…

Thank you @Bill_Toge for the substitutions you suggested. I am really curious about the Pelemol P3D. I ordered a sample.

@MarkBroussard: I too laugh when I see vegan skincare, and I agree with your points. I love beeswax and would not give that up…

[Anca_Formulator]

I second that what you are looking at is syneresis: “Syneresis in chemistry is the extraction or expulsion of a liquid from a gel.2 Typically, when a gel is formed, little pockets of liquid are trapped in a solid matrix. If this matrix packs tightly enough, or the components of the gel are not compatible, the liquid can be forced out of the network”. This quote is from this link that Perry posted some time ago re. this topic. 

https://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/research/literature-data/article/21834707/comparatively-speaking-hysteresis-vs-syneresis

You can do a search for this topic in the forum and find all kinds of helpful info. Hope this helps.

Re. cooling it, without rapid cooling it you might graininess. 

Lastly, your liquid phase may be too high to be held in place by the rest of the formula.

[Anca_Formulator]

@jemolian: thank you!! The lanolin replacement suggestion really helped. I can’t find it from my suppliers, but maybe orange peel wax would work too. 

I read that isononyl is rich and creamy, though I’ve never seen it. Is coco caprylate/caprate also rich and creamy? I thought it was light/medium. 

[Anca_Formulator]

@Farah: I’ve used all 5 methods. My favorite is the overhead stirrer.
Given the viscosity you are starting with, I would say the sieve if you don’t have an overhead stirrer. 

I don’t know where you are located, but to start with this one is affordable and works very well. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XXFLVBS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Anca_Formulator]

@Farah Here’s a video on five ways to disperse gums without clumping. I found this helpful 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMbR4tPN3Sw

[Anca_Formulator]

@Newtoformulating: It depends on what else is in your formula and the pH…

[Anca_Formulator]

@Farah Well put.  I love it, “Good synthetic trumps bad natural”

[Anca_Formulator]

@Fekher @chemicalmatt @MarkBroussard @Pharma Thank you, I hear you! 

You said it @MarkBroussard: Ugly Betty is as pretty as natural gets.

Here’s something I’ve been considering more and more: as close to 100% naturally derived my formulations strive to be, I don’t want to be so very rigid. I want my consumer to fully delight in the product.
It’s funny how habitual and blind my insistence has been on naturals only, but when I did deeper I start running into, “so what if it’s not 100% natural?” What’s the tragedy?

My guess is that if a consumer was given a choice between 100% natural Ugly Betty and 95% natural but glamorous, most would chose the latter…Yes, I might lose a few, but so what?

I’m willing to sacrifice a bit of  % for that. I’m already a sell-out when it comes to preservatives…

So I will give polymerics a shot after all! Once again, thank you for helping me relax a bit!

@Fekher sorry for getting a bit gruffy when you challenged me on naturals only

[Anca_Formulator]

@PhilGeis: Thank you

[Anca_Formulator]

@fekher I agree that safety and functionality are critical, but looking for natural materials is not a fake problem if you are a natural formulator and your market is the natural market…

[Anca_Formulator]

Thank you so much. I was wondering if that had something to do with it. Following your hint, I nudged the percentage down a bit. Then, two more culprits popped up:

• The pH of the water phase was at a startling 10.75! Heliosoft suggests a 0.2% Sodium Phytate concentration over the usual 0.1%.
• Blending a few drops of the lactic acid adjuster into a 600g emulsion turned out to be quite the challenge (I’m using the overhead stirrer for this). Normally, my batches are in the 250-300g range for R&D in the lab. So, how to effectively mix a few drops into such a hefty amount has been a bit of a head-scratcher. To sidestep this hassle, I adjusted the pH upfront, in the water phase. How do you disperse drops into larger volumes?

[Anca_Formulator]

@PhilGeis I have been researching Germall Plus Liquid, focusing primarily on its safety to humans. I just now shifted my attention to its potential environmental impact, specifically its ecotoxicity. Upon reviewing the Safety Data Sheet (SDS), I noticed that this preservative might pose a risk to aquatic life, affecting fish and algae at certain concentrations. While some toxicity levels at a 0.5% concentration of Germall Plus Liquid fall within acceptable limits, others exceed them. I would appreciate any insights or thoughts on this matter, specifically how you would rate the ecotoxity of Germall Plus as a whole rather than by individual components?

Also, what do you like about Glydant + compared to Germall Plus?

Thank you!

• This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Anca_Formulator.

[Anca_Formulator]

I use Germall Plus Liquid in all of my otherwise 99.5% natural products and I love it, but I do run into consumer perception issues with the formaldehyde donor.

The Cosmetic Ingredient Review (CIR) Expert Panel evaluated the scientific data and concluded that Diazolidinyl Urea was safe as a cosmetic ingredient up to a maximum concentration of 0.5%. The Cosmetic Ingredient Review Expert Panel has evaluated its safety and found it to be non-irritating to the skin and not phototoxic. Although Diazolidinyl Urea can release formaldehyde, the amount released is well below the recommended exposure limits and is considered safe when using 0.5% Germall Plus. The maximum usage rate of 0.5% Liquid Germall™ Plus results in 0.002% Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate in finished formulations, which is lower than the 0.02% approved rate.

Even still, consumer perception is hard to overcome. @PhilGeis is there any other scientific data you can point to that supports its safety and might help with consumer perception?

• This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Anca_Formulator.

[Anca_Formulator]

Thank you so much! It really helps to know SCI won’t become clear.

I had read somewhere as well just recently that amhoterics help, I tried cocamidopropyl betaine and it was a whole different story. I’ve been following Swift Crafty Monkey (Susan Barclay Nichols) for years 😉 In fact this surfactant phase was modeled on one of her formulas, where she also says she doesn’t understand why people have such a hard time melting SCI! The link you provided is to formulas from another ebook where I see she changed the method from melting all three together. Surfactants are a whole new world for me…lots to learn.