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Formulation help: Best emulsifiers to pair up
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I’ve used Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate with 165, no problems whatsoever.
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I think you might find this a fun read:
https://formulabotanica.com/montanov-202-palm-oil-free-emulsifier/
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Here is another….for M 68 aka Vegetal:
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elirit said:Graillotion said:BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream. This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.Thank you! I read the same info on lotioncrafter earlier. Today I bought cetyl esters and 165 and alkyl benzoate to trial. Yesterday I decreased eumulgin to 0.5% and 68 to 3.5%(still soapy). Also, does tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate interact with 165 as I have that in my formula. I read it interacts with PEG on one site but have not seen that on other sites. Lastly, I have 0.4 % xanthan gum in my formula. If the cream is already thick with 68, is there a need for the gum or was it added due to stability? Thanks again. Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.
You paid for this formula “ ( Emulgin SG 1%, Liposorb 1%, and Olivem 1000 6%)”? Not saying it’s a bad formula but it’s seem strange to me.
elirit said:Yes you are right regarding pleasing everyone. Lol @bug food. I think I will try the 165 without emulgin at a higher percentage and see how it goes. I think I just got nervous because I see a lot of formulas on markst with 3 different emulsifiers. Thank you:)But not all emulsifiers were used at high %. Start with primary emulsifier and then you can add 1 or 2 co-emulsifier(s) if you like.
for example. - https://formulabotanica.com/organic-emulsion-olivem-1000/
PHASE A
25.0% – Organic poppy seed oil 25.0%
5.0% – Olivem 1000PHASE B
Up toto 100.0% – Freshly boiled distilled water
0.1% – Dermofeel PA-3 (chelating agent, antioxidant)PHASE C
4.0% – Organic 99.8% glycerine
0.4% – Solagum AX (a proprietary blend of acacia and xanthan gum)PHASE D
0.5% – Natural Tocopherol
PHASE E
A few drops of 25% NaOH solution
1.3% – Versatil TBG (our preservative with INCI Name: Triethyl Citrate (and) Glyceryl Caprylate (and) Benzoic Acid)start simple and then you can change something to match what you like.
for example - If I want it to be a little bit thicker, I would add Fatty Alcohol 3% and Emuligin SG 0.1% as a co-emulsifier for stability.
so my new
PHASE A
21.9% – Organic poppy seed oil 25.0%
5.0% – Olivem 1000
3.0% - Cetyl Alcohol
0.1% - Emuligin SGthen you can adjust it little by little.
Same go if you should use Montanov 68, Montanov 202, etc.
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jemolian said:I mentioned previously, that the gum might also cause soapiness besides from the over use of emulsifiers, so you can consider:
- 0.25% Eumulgin + 3.5% Montanov 68 + 0.15% Xanthan Gum (Likely to still have some soaping, if not you can consider adding dimethicone or other agents as a replacement)
- 3.5% Montanov with 0.75% Aristoflex (Should make a light cream, can increase to 1% for thicker viscosity)
For the Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate:
Morning or Afternoon Jemolian,
I do remember you stating xanthan gum can cause soaping. I did not remove xanthan gum because I was unsure of it’s purpose in the formula. But I will trial at 0.15% or remove. Thank you for this information regarding tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate.
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emma1985 said:I’ve used Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate with 165, no problems whatsoever.
Thank you
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Pattsi said:Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.
You paid for this formula ” ( Emulgin SG 1%, Liposorb 1%, and Olivem 1000 6%)”? Not saying it’s a bad formula but it’s seem strange to me.
Hi Pattsi,
Yes unfortunately I paid which is why I ended up finding this site. I had to trial and error. Thank you for all this information. I will get to reading on my lunch break
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Graillotion said:elirit said:Graillotion said:BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream. This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.Thank you! I read the same info on lotioncrafter earlier. Today I bought cetyl esters and 165 and alkyl benzoate to trial. Yesterday I decreased eumulgin to 0.5% and 68 to 3.5%(still soapy). Also, does tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate interact with 165 as I have that in my formula. I read it interacts with PEG on one site but have not seen that on other sites. Lastly, I have 0.4 % xanthan gum in my formula. If the cream is already thick with 68, is there a need for the gum or was it added due to stability? Thanks again. Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.
If soaping is your issue…we need to approach from a little different angle.
1) M 202 will soap less than M 68
2) Across the board, soaping is typically reduced by adding dimethicone, as mentioned above. However…if you are trying to be ‘cone free’….it can be done…but it will be costly! I use between 8-10% of super slip and slide ingredients to = what dimethicone does. I don’t think you have posted your full formula…another common culprit….is stearic acid.
3) If you use a polymeric…(plus what you have) you can certainly remove the gum. But memba…most polymeric’s don’t like your electrolytes. I think Zen can handle some. Aristoflex…Nope. I also use Aristoflex…and love it. I think a lot of people say….Zen gets a little jiggly above .5%. So maybe don’t exceed that.I don’t know anything about tetrahexyldecyl.
Thanks Graillotion! First, I will research to see if I have electrolytes in formula. I will try 202 again as I have got it last week. I will read about silicones and the benefits/disadvantages on my lunch break. Wow, thanks everyone!
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If you just use the search box on this site….and type ‘soaping’ … you will get several lunch hours of information.
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Hello All,
I really tried to research this instead of asking this question. It states electrolytes are sodium, potassium, chloride, magnesium, calcium, phosphates, and bicarbonate. In my formula it has Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Sodium Phytate, botanical extracts, and peptides. Are these incompatible with Arisoflex? Thank you.
I also bought aristoflex, GSC (lotioncrafter GMS), and cetyl alcohol this morning.
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GSC = Glyceryl stearate citrate
I don’t think available from LC.
Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)
In my opinion….a must have in the tool box…not as a primary, but as a secondary…that does not destroy texture we work so hard to achieve.
I use this at a SUPER low rate….just to stabilize the Montanov’s.
I also use it with 165 at a much higher rate….on a crazy product that I have…that is incredibly hard to emulsify! Great tandem.
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I also use Sodium Phytate. When used at such low inclusion rates (.1-.2%) they will still work with Aristoflex.
Your extracts and peptides will have to be analysed on an individual basis.
A classic example would be….Aloe.
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In my formula it has Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Sodium Phytate, botanical extracts, and peptides. Are these incompatible with Arisoflex? Thank you.
With the mention of Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, i’m assuming you are using SK Influx, i don’t think that would be an issue.
For Sodium Phytate, as Graillotion mentioned, it depends on the usage rates. Aristoflex won’t be able to take electrolytes, though at 0.05% to 0.1% of Sodium Phytate it might still be fine, but you will only know when doing stability testing. If the Aristoflex don’t work out with the percentage, you can always switch out to other polymerics or carbomer or gums depend on how you want it to be.
For botanical extracts & peptides, you will need to see what preservatives they used since they may choose to preserve them with Sodium Benzoate or Potassium Sorbate, so it’s something that should be taken note of, besides from the more obvious botanicals that contains electrolytes like aloe or coconut.
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Graillotion said:GSC = Glyceryl stearate citrate
I don’t think available from LC.
Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)
In my opinion….a must have in the tool box…not as a primary, but as a secondary…that does not destroy texture we work so hard to achieve.
I use this at a SUPER low rate….just to stabilize the Montanov’s.
I also use it with 165 at a much higher rate….on a crazy product that I have…that is incredibly hard to emulsify! Great tandem.
I just realized that I bought glyceryl stearate, not glyceryl stearate citrate
. Ok the peptides are syn tc, syn tack and matrixyl 3000. extracts are tumeric and green tea extract. I was looking online for an electrolyte chcker and was unsuccessful. Ok, I’m off to buy GSC. Thanks again. -
jemolian said:In my formula it has Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Sodium Phytate, botanical extracts, and peptides. Are these incompatible with Arisoflex? Thank you.
With the mention of Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, i’m assuming you are using SK Influx, i don’t think that would be an issue.
For Sodium Phytate, as Graillotion mentioned, it depends on the usage rates. Aristoflex won’t be able to take electrolytes, though at 0.05% to 0.1% of Sodium Phytate it might still be fine, but you will only know when doing stability testing. If the Aristoflex don’t work out with the percentage, you can always switch out to other polymerics or carbomer or gums depend on how you want it to be.
For botanical extracts & peptides, you will need to see what preservatives they used since they may choose to preserve them with Sodium Benzoate or Potassium Sorbate, so it’s something that should be taken note of, besides from the more obvious botanicals that contains electrolytes like aloe or coconut.
Thank you Jemolian!
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elirit said:Graillotion said:GSC = Glyceryl stearate citrate
I don’t think available from LC.
Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)
In my opinion….a must have in the tool box…not as a primary, but as a secondary…that does not destroy texture we work so hard to achieve.
I use this at a SUPER low rate….just to stabilize the Montanov’s.
I also use it with 165 at a much higher rate….on a crazy product that I have…that is incredibly hard to emulsify! Great tandem.
I just realized that I bought glyceryl stearate, not glyceryl stearate citrate
. Ok the peptides are syn tc, syn tack and matrixyl 3000. extracts are tumeric and green tea extract. I was looking online for an electrolyte chcker and was unsuccessful. Ok, I’m off to buy GSC. Thanks again.I asked Pharma the difference between the two, and here is his response:
“Two different things entirely.GSC is a high HLB emulsifier, GS a low HLB co-emulsifier similar to stearyl alcohol.”He steered me to GSC early on, when I was struggling with a very difficult emulsion that 165 (by itself) could not hold together.
GSC is nice in that it does not bring a lot of thickening, so can be added without completely changing what you already have.
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Graillotion said:elirit .
I asked Pharma the difference between the two, and here is his response:
“Two different things entirely.GSC is a high HLB emulsifier, GS a low HLB co-emulsifier similar to stearyl alcohol.”He steered me to GSC early on, when I was struggling with a very difficult emulsion that 165 (by itself) could not hold together.
GSC is nice in that it does not bring a lot of thickening, so can be added without completely changing what you already have.
Thank you! I bought the GSC from making cosmetics. I will be trying with mont 202, mont 202 with aristoflex, and 165.
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And just to clarify, if i add aristoflex or “cones”, I can remove the xanthan gum? Thx
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elirit said:And just to clarify, if i add aristoflex or “cones”, I can remove the xanthan gum? Thx
Yes….with the Aristoflex.
The cones have no bearing on stability….. It is used for several purposes, but I think in the context of this thread….it was mentioned to deter soaping.
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elirit said:Graillotion said:elirit .
I asked Pharma the difference between the two, and here is his response:
“Two different things entirely.GSC is a high HLB emulsifier, GS a low HLB co-emulsifier similar to stearyl alcohol.”He steered me to GSC early on, when I was struggling with a very difficult emulsion that 165 (by itself) could not hold together.
GSC is nice in that it does not bring a lot of thickening, so can be added without completely changing what you already have.
Thank you! I bought the GSC from making cosmetics. I will be trying with mont 202, mont 202 with aristoflex, and 165.
Both should make nice emulsions…. You just have to find the one that creates the texture you are looking for.
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Maybe to be specific, if you choose to use aristoflex or other polymerics, you can remove the xanthan gum. The polymerics can act as a co-emulsifier & stabilizer.
If you choose to add dimethicone, perhaps it’s best to still retain a gum for stability if possible.
You can pick and choose which ever that fits your cost or product requirements.
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You guys have been amazing. You have helped ease my anxiety as I’m trying to navigate through this journey of entrepreneurship. I really, really appreciate the help
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each polymers or gums have their own characteristics, strength, weakness, many brands use 2-3 to get the desired texture. This is the part you have to work it out.
I see you have syn tc, syn tack and matrixyl 3000.extracts are tumeric and green tea extract, don’t dump everything at max % in your first few batches, try playing with your emulsifier and polymer first so you won’t waste your actives. be patient, or if you have large budget to spend - I say go ahead give it a go, if it fail you can use it on your feet.
happy holidays and happy formulating
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Pattsi said:each polymers or gums have their own characteristics, strength, weakness, many brands use 2-3 to get the desired texture. This is the part you have to work it out.
I see you have syn tc, syn tack and matrixyl 3000.extracts are tumeric and green tea extract, don’t dump everything at max % in your first few batches, try playing with your emulsifier and polymer first so you won’t waste your actives. be patient, or if you have large budget to spend - I say go ahead give it a go, if it fail you can use it on your feet.
happy holidays and happy formulating
Haha Pattsi! That is exactly what I’ve been doing using the failed samples on my body lol. I was unsure why I saw 3 emulsifiers in formulas, I thought it had to do with stability. However, you’re saying it’s related to texture. I do not have a big budget my anxiety etc. But you guys have been great in giving out free advice. I’m still waiting on my emulsifiers in the mail and I will keep you updated
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Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures. It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!
Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want. Maybe I’m just not any good at this?
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