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Formulation help: Best emulsifiers to pair up
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Some recommend….first work on your texture…just use the cheapest oil you can find…leave out all actives… and nail down the texture (if that is what you’re after).
Granted….there are some popular products on the market with awful textures…so that is not what everyone is after. Maybe I am unique…in chasing texture. I just need my consumer to have two ‘Ah Hah’ moments….once when their finger touches the product, and a bigger one…when it touches their face.(Wait…make that 3…. And one the following morning…when they wake and feel their face!)
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Graillotion said:Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures. It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want. Maybe I’m just not any good at this?
Lol. Im sure you’re great at this. You are probably just a perfectionist
Weird question, because my amount of oil is so low, about 7.5%, is glycerin considered oil? Im not sure if I am supposed to count that as oil. Thank you.
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And so far I love the texture of montanov 68.
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elirit said:Graillotion said:Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures. It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!
Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want. Maybe I’m just not any good at this?
Lol. Im sure you’re great at this. You are probably just a perfectionist
Weird question, because my amount of oil is so low, about 7.5%, is glycerin considered oil? Im not sure if I am supposed to count that as oil. Thank you.
Nope…does not count.
If you have an oil and water phase…..generally….EVERYTHING in the oil phase is considered.
Guessing your glycerine…is in the water phase….right?
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Graillotion said:elirit said:Graillotion said:Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures. It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!
Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want. Maybe I’m just not any good at this?
Lol. Im sure you’re great at this. You are probably just a perfectionist
Weird question, because my amount of oil is so low, about 7.5%, is glycerin considered oil? Im not sure if I am supposed to count that as oil. Thank you.
Nope…does not count.
If you have an oil and water phase…..generally….EVERYTHING in the oil phase is considered.
Guessing your glycerine…is in the water phase….right?
Yes, chemist told me mix glycerin with xanthan gum then add to water. I asked because I am now realizing through this forum that some emulsifiers do better with high oil content and vise versa.
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Yes….emulsifiers are like snow flakes….No two are the same. Each must be studied, and balanced, and selected for the project based on your goals and items included.
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Thank you @Graillotion
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To add to the recommendation of testing, i’d recommend to patch test all your functional, structural & additive ingredients if you are not familiar enough with them yet. So, mainly your lipids, emulsifiers/thickener, texture/sensory modifiers. It’s good to know kind of performance in terms of skin feel, viscosity, look they have at different percentages. This is more or less a one time thing, so just note down your observation. This way you can more or less whip up a formulation quickly based on your work done.
For example, i’d patch test the Aristoflex at 0.3%, 0.5%, 0.75%, 1% in 30ml batch. Then to patch test the lipids or oils, test it straight at 100%, then test at 2%, 4%, 10% in Aristoflex or other emulsifiers which you have previously tested. Also test humectants in similar way at different dilutions, just not 100% unless they are safe to be applied that way.
In terms of product design wise, for my current specific themed moisturizer, i’m at my 27th revision. I note the look, pickup, texture / skin feel, smell, performance in higher humidity (~70%) & slightly lower humidity (~50%).
For example, the 27th revision that i whipped up yesterday, i’m testing a few things at once:
- the new ingredient that i’m testing is Tremella (humectant)
- the new emulsifier combination i’m testing is Aristoflex with Hydrolyzed Sclerotium Gum
- i’m also testing a lower lipid percentage
If you know what you are testing and which part of observe, it’s possible to make multiple changes to it. So for example for the Tremella, i’m testing if it would cause a tightness as it’s a well known film former, for the emulsifier combo, i’m testing the look, pick up and skin feel. The lipids, i’m testing the moisturization / emolliency. If the ingredients you are testing overlaps in terms of things you want to observe, it’s best to make a separate batch for observation.
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jemolian said:To add to the recommendation of testing, i’d recommend to patch test all your functional, structural & additive ingredients if you are not familiar enough with them yet. So, mainly your lipids, emulsifiers/thickener, texture/sensory modifiers. It’s good to know kind of performance in terms of skin feel, viscosity, look they have at different percentages. This is more or less a one time thing, so just note down your observation. This way you can more or less whip up a formulation quickly based on your work done.
For example, i’d patch test the Aristoflex at 0.3%, 0.5%, 0.75%, 1% in 30ml batch. Then to patch test the lipids or oils, test it straight at 100%, then test at 2%, 4%, 10% in Aristoflex or other emulsifiers which you have previously tested. Also test humectants in similar way at different dilutions, just not 100% unless they are safe to be applied that way.
In terms of product design wise, for my current specific themed moisturizer, i’m at my 27th revision. I note the look, pickup, texture / skin feel, smell, performance in higher humidity (~70%) & slightly lower humidity (~50%).
For example, the 27th revision that i whipped up yesterday, i’m testing a few things at once:
- the new ingredient that i’m testing is Tremella (humectant)
- the new emulsifier combination i’m testing is Aristoflex with Hydrolyzed Sclerotium Gum
- i’m also testing a lower lipid percentage
If you know what you are testing and which part of observe, it’s possible to make multiple changes to it. So for example for the Tremella, i’m testing if it would cause a tightness as it’s a well known film former, for the emulsifier combo, i’m testing the look, pick up and skin feel. The lipids, i’m testing the moisturization / emolliency. If the ingredients you are testing overlaps in terms of things you want to observe, it’s best to make a separate batch for observation.
Thank you Jemolian,
Invaluable information. I will definitely try these ratios and note my observations. I love this idea:)
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Graillotion said:Yes, there could be a small subset of consumers that have the perception that PEG is bad. You will always find a group of misguided consumers that will balk at every possible ingredient you might include. I would balk at the fact you had extracts in your product, which I would consider ‘bug food’. So you can not please everyone, and in the end you need to make the most stable product you can….which would be 165 based.
Yes you can pair it with Emuligin, if you can bear the sensories.
When you say “bug food”, what do you mean by it? What ingredients fall under this category of ingredients?
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ifamuj said:Graillotion said:Yes, there could be a small subset of consumers that have the perception that PEG is bad. You will always find a group of misguided consumers that will balk at every possible ingredient you might include. I would balk at the fact you had extracts in your product, which I would consider ‘bug food’. So you can not please everyone, and in the end you need to make the most stable product you can….which would be 165 based.
Yes you can pair it with Emuligin, if you can bear the sensories.
When you say “bug food”, what do you mean by it? What ingredients fall under this category of ingredients?
Here is a quote from @Perry in another thread…that succinctly answers:
“Bug food” is any ingredient on which microbes can eat and grow. This can be sugars, carbohydrates, proteins, or a variety of other hydrocarbons found in cosmetics formulas.
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FYI,
these pics are for the newbies who may be curious how my samples came out. A company mailed me alkyl benzoate instead of GSC so I have to wait to get that in the mail.
3.5%Mont 680.25 % eumulgin
1% C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate
0.2% gum3% glycerin
7.5% oil
Rich cream, however soaping still excessive. It could be brand of xanthan gum or need to increase C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate
2.0% 1650.25 % eumulgin
1.1% cetyl esters
0.2% gum3% glycerin
7.5% oil
24 hour pic. Can take up to 48 hours to thicken. Very thin viscosity so far.
3.0% Mont 2023.0% cetyl alcohol
0.5% aristoflexVery thin viscosity.
3.0% Mont 2020.25 % eumulgin
1% C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate
0.2% gum3% glycerin
7.5% oil
Medium viscosity, however soaping still excessive. It could be brand of xanthan gum or need to increase C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate. I like the texture of this one the most minus the soaping.Next sample will include 165 with GSC and 202 with GSC.
Thank you.
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To decrease soaping without using dimethicone, your slip and slide ingredients need to be approaching 10% (this does not include your natural oils).
you can lose the gum…if you sub in a polymeric emulsifier, which will also enhance texture. A double win.
165 does very little thickening, so if that is your primary…you’ll need more Eumulgin…or Cetyl alcohol, or 202 as a ‘co’, or polymerics.
Your thin 202… looks like maybe you had a phase inversion…should be way thicker than that. 202 needs to be coupled with an Anionic. Eumulgin or GSC.
When you make a 202 formula…are you getting it up to that 180-185F (83-85 C) range. It requires more heat than any of the other common emulsifiers.
Describe in detail…how you combine the phases…. which into which…and with what kind of tool…and rpms, and duration.
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I am having trouble seeing well….but the cream appears to be either grainy…or bubbly. Can you clarify.
Are the formulas you listed complete, sans water (emulsifier trials)…or just part of what is in there?
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You slip and slide ingredients…I consider the most important aspect of the cream…that is what people feel, what gives the first impression…what makes them remember it. What separates your formula from the mommy blogger formulas.
Do not be monolithic with your slip and slide…they need to vary in viscosity to give the cream depth and texture. I was taught by the best…”Create a cascading effect of emolliency” So for the beginner some of these possible options that are easy to acquire, here are three examples…
We’ll start with what I assume you have….C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate
Ethylhexyl Palmitate (Octyl Palmitate)
DERMOFEEL SENSOLV (ISOAMYL LAURATE)
Once you work through your emulsifiers…. experiment with varying levels of these… this will take you to a whole new level…. and start to address your soaping, if you get the levels up to functional amounts.As the first two are common among suppliers…I will only include a link to the last one…as it is a little harder to find.
Isoamyl laurate (formulatorsampleshop.com)
Other than water….that is the what I use the most of in all my formulas. (Oops…starting to let secrets out.)
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Hi Graillotion,
always nice to hear from you. I will try to remember your questions in order. No, I did not heat up 202 to 83. I heated it to 76. These samples are with about 85% water. One is grainy. All of them are bubbly. I think because I am using a cheap mini mixer. I will increase oil phase to 10% for samples. I have never heard of Octyl Palmitate or Isoamyl laurate. I will look them up right now. I hope you have a great evening Thanks a lot for you input! -
With emulsifiers…it is very important to follow the mfg’s instructions…so when using 202….use the right temp, or you cannot expect the right result.
I think you are missing my meaning….Not your oil phase to 10%…but your ultra light weight emollients to 10%. Oils do not provide the textures most are looking for. They are mainly in there for claim reasons. (If you are using 9% oils + 10% light weight emollients…then you have a 19% oil phase…this not including all the other goodies in the oil phase…like emulsifier, polymerics, misc textural enhancers, etc.)
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Directions for using M 202:
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SDS stated melting point is 74 to 78 so I thought I was being smart by heating to 76 lol. Next time I will look at the actual manufacturer site instead of the suppliers site. Ok I think I understand what you are saying regarding emollients. My slip and slide should be at least 10% NOT including natural oils. I was being cheap and just using oil for sampling. I forgot to answer your question. These are emulsifier trials. I combine them by heating the water phase, then adding emulsifiers with oil to water phase, stirring with a mini mixer from lotioncrafter. Thank you 🙂
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Graillotion said:Directions for using M 202:
Thanks Graillotion!
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elirit said:SDS stated melting point is 74 to 78 so I thought I was being smart by heating to 76 lol. Next time I will look at the actual manufacturer site instead of the suppliers site. Ok I think I understand what you are saying regarding emollients. My slip and slide should be at least 10% NOT including natural oils. I was being cheap and just using oil for sampling. I forgot to answer your question. These are emulsifier trials. I combine them by heating the water phase, then adding emulsifiers with oil to water phase, stirring with a mini mixer from lotioncrafter. Thank you 🙂
Can you post a picture of the mini mixer…. equipment is often more important than any other aspect.
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It is very very cheap. I bought for trials. There were no instructions so I assumed the first tool was most appropriate for high shear.
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Argh.
I am afraid I can not be of assistance.
If you need some coffee recipes….I’m here for you.
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:smiley: @ coffee recipes. I assumed my bubbles were from my cheap equipment. I wanted to try to get the formula down pat before investing in an homogenizer and a stirrer.
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elirit said::smiley: @ coffee recipes. I assumed my bubbles were from my cheap equipment. I wanted to try to get the formula down pat before investing in an homogenizer and a stirrer.
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