[Thota]

I love ancient herbs. But we lack research behind them. 
Companies have to come-up with budgets to fund research. 
But companies also want sustainable or easily available(cheaper) ingredients and hence they focus more amazonian forest or marine or biotechnological. 
Ayurvedic or Chinese herbs are already expensive and have alternate uses. Hence much research is not going behind them.

Also powder masks with herbs work well.
Also Ayurvedic recipes have oil recipes of simmering herbal decoctions in oil. And I saw one paper that says water soluble components are present in the these oil without any emulsifiers. 

Also most of the ayurvedic cosmetic products you see in the US spa market are not truly Ayurvedic. As ayurvedic only has 3 kinds of formulas with 10-15 ingredints each. One, fresh herbal pastes. Two, herbal powders(made as decoction and consumed internally or applied on). Three, decoctions simmered in oils. 

In my experience they all three work well. 
I have seen increase in hair growth with ayurvedic oils. Brighter skin with powders.

Problem is,
1. We cannot standardise the % of active ingredient with every batch
2. No research on side effects or even effectiveness to make claims
3. Plants are wild grown not cultivated, some times they can be different sub species based on the location collected.

I personally use those powders and oils.
But as a cosmetic maker I dont include tradition herbs in our products except when they are standardised by companies and there is proven research behind them.

[Thota]

At what percentage have you used spectrastat that caused warming? 
I have used CHA %0.1 with no problem

I think capryl glycol can cause warming feeling on skin.

[Thota]

CAPB & Glutamate are mild
Coco glucosides - i find it a bit harsh on skin compared to above,  keep it to minimum. 

[Thota]

Did the Lecigel one caused problem too?

[Thota]

@Pharma
I am the one who struggles with preservatives, spent number of hours to solve my problem. 
I own a small brand, presently Use PE 9010.
around 1-2% struggle with reactions to PE 9010
I also hear people reacting to ehtylhexyl glycerin.

I dont like sorbic or benzoic acid due to flushing or reaction they can cause in low pH.

CHA I tried in the form of spectrastat, it creates warm feeling on skin.

Dermosoft 1388, havent tried it. But heard that it causes similar reaction to sorbic and benzoic. I am keeping my fingers crossed and really wish it doesn’t cause issues. 

Phenylproponol combinations are fine but I dont like its smell.
Phenethyl alcohol, like its smell but havent tried it. I have figure out combinations with pentylene glycol.

Hoping one day my preservative problem will be solved like magic so that I can formulate without worrying about preservatives. 

I primarily make water based products, hence more chances of irritation. 
Also important note that most of the preservatives are fine with emulsions or creams.

[Thota]

According to CLR data sheets  
water > 50% 
Phospholipids 1-5%
Shingolipids 0.1-1% (I get quite frustrated if the range is this broad)

SK Influx is almost 5 times the cost of Ceramides by CLR
Sk influx seems to have 3 times the ceramides.

Doing the math,

10% of Ceramides by CLR is equivalent to 3.3% of Sk influx

But cost wise 3.3% SK influx would cost me 30% more than 10% Ceramides by CLR. Thats a good comparison!

But wanted to know function wise which one is better for acne prone skin?
I really don’t know the complete science of ceramides,
I know what their function in skin care,
and they felt very elegant on skin. 

[Thota]

Thanks a lot @chemicalmatt

Does UVasorb has any role in the formula?
I am planning to use this serum in the morning, Do you think photo exposure is an issue with this form of Vit C? I am aware the Ascorbyl Palmiate issue but this doesnt seem to have that issue.

Looking for Color changes in an oil formula may be difficult.
Is there any test, that can be done to observe for oxidation apart from color changes?

[Thota]

I use green tea extract in a niacinamide serum, 
High % green tea was browish yellow and low% green tea in pale yellow
I have 3 people telling me that brown colored niacinamide serum was more effective, but can also be the perception issue. 

@Perry
If you can identify what that is then I might be able to suggest some other alternative ingredients. 

But brown colored serum made their skin, 
more calm and less redness (anti-inflammatory effect)
tiny white heads popping out etc (anti-bacterial effect)
But this difference is noted by only 3 people among 100s. 

I know green tea works well for acne in powered clay mask, 20% green tea and 80% clay, and when applied, reduction in size of inflamed acne, less redness and more radiance. But not sure if the extract works in similar way to powder herb mask. 
A lot can get vary between dry herbs to extracts- strength, oxidation etc. 

@Graillotion
totally agree with smell, texture and packaging.
But I am hopeful of herbs.

@Pharma 
I am searching for EGCG suppliers, I find Givadun has 5% EGCG in water. 
And I find powder from China. Will check both.

Also for other herbs, with anti inflmmatory and anti bacterial, a bit antioxidant. 

Pycogenol is fantastic butcoloured, I am looking for colorless or white colored extracts that work similar to green tea ( anti-inflammatory and antibacterial, a bit antioxidant. ) 

[Thota]

Wow @Pharma,
Such great inputs on antioxidants.
I have seen in many formulas Ascorbic added in small % and never realised that it is added for AO protection. 
My question is, 
Does it require a pH of around 3 for Ascorbic acid to protect the formula?

I do make a green tea face gel,
By making the extract in glycerin 
100 Glycerin
100 water (ph 5)
Greentea  500
I let it infuse for 2-3 days and filter
And I use this extract at 5% to make my face gel with Xanthan. (PE 9010 preservative + 0.2% EDTA)

And I hate that it turns brown and eventually gray.
can addition of Ascorbic Acid help my gel to stay little lighter color and at what pH?

[Thota]

TheSocksTooBig said:

I changed the preservative, and no longer experience that burning! thanks everyone

Hi, Can you please let me know which preservative is feeling better for you.
I too felt warming sensation when I used Spectrastat - it contains Capryl glycol. 

[Thota]

Thanks Perry, 
But I read that tocopherol acetate doesn’t offer protection to the formula, it only benefits the skin.
Hence looking for tocopherol which helps with antioxidant protection for the vit C. 

[Thota]

Very good point @zetein they may not list everything. also i find their marketing a bit deceitful (few brands) like 80% hyaluronic acid serum , 50% centella extract etc.

@chemicalmatt i understand its glycols and water activity,
I will buy Microcount Combi to do some initial testing myself. They seem to cost me $10 per slide in my country, bit pricy but will have reduce irritation potential of my water based gels.

Pentylene glycol seems to have good efficacy against gram+ve, -ve and yeast. 
While hexylene glycol has good gram -ve, yeast but average with gram +ve and mold. 

Will start testing with 4% Pentylene glycol
If not sufficient will add Phenoxyethanol or acids.

[Thota]

@Graillotion

Yes I do add rosemary Antioxidant 

My oil phase,
10% Rosehip oil
10% Jojoba
0.1% Rosemary Antioxidant
0.2% mixed tocopherols 50%
Emulsifier and Cetyl alcohol

[Thota]

Thanks a lot @chemicalmatt 
But Cool down time of 20 kg batch is very less and cool time of 150 kg will be overnight.
Will it increase oxidation of Rosehip oil?

I have chiller options are available, but I havent invested in it?

[Thota]

@mikethair could u pls guide me where to look for that information?
Do u do that for all the countries or do u just focus on main markets like US, Canada, Aust, Middle east and EU?
I am based in India.

[Thota]

Thanks @EVchem

All sites mention of selling in their country or region. 
So companies who ship internationally doesn’t have to comply with individual countries.
But they have to comply with the local country they are registered in right?

[Thota]

Thanks a lot @LincsChemist

• Stability report can be done (should I complete 2 yrs realtime stability report?)
• Challenge test can be done
• Safety assessment can be done, found few by googling
• But for CPNP should I ask a friend or where to find companies?

No requirements to meet to sell in US, Canada and Middle East?

[Thota]

I would cut cocoa butter a little and increase cetyl alcohol a bit more.

[Thota]

Koreans companies have different marketing approach.
ex:

• 100% Hyaluronic Acid (completely marketing thing)

• 60% Green tea extract (again same)

An extract can be either concentrated powder, diluted in glycerin , PG or 
may be just water infusion.

Recently I have seen something called steam distilled green tea water.

What properties does steam distillation offer ? An infusion that is sterilised?

So based on marketing approach company can use the extract at the level they want. 

@Perry
what about all those studies of green tea on skin? 

[Thota]

Are you talking about cleansing balm where more ingredients can be added?
I think u are trying to understand what ph will it be when applied on damp skin?
May be test by dissolving it in water. 

If its purely lipids then dont worry about pH

[Thota]

Have u tried and experienced it personally?
I hate glucosides in facial cleansers but never had a problem with montanov 68 in creams. 

[Thota]

Yes 10% SAP + 0.5 Tocopherol is sticky.
Will try PEG 40 with BG.
Have u tried natural Solublisers like Speiclear G7.

Thanks a lot @EVchem!

[Thota]

Now I understand why many companies use very tiny % of green tea in their products. I wanted to be different but now need to find better soothing antioxidants. 

[Thota]

Thanks @Pharma for your reply. Your posts are always very informative.

Yes totally forgot there is 5% BG and 5% glycerin in the formula.

Planning to test above combo deleting glycerin, I am primarily looking at this combo for water based serum with pH6.5

I used to use PE 9010 but phenoxyethanol is causing reactions to some customers and also found some studies that it is less microbiome friendly. Glycols and EHG seems Skin Microbiome friendly. 
 
Will be trying below combination 

5% BG
0.2% EHG
2% HG
+
Pheneylpropanol 0.2%

Alternatively I am also planning to try just the below combo 
3% Petylene GLycol 
0.4% Pheneylpropanol
Above combo is from Dermosoft 250 data shets for pH 6.4 solution 

GMCY would be great but it is not so helpful for water only products

Planning to buy an incubator and few microbial testing kits, to start this testing.

[Thota]

Even I am considering to invest in a all in one vessel to do my emulsions and gels. Previously all my bathces are by Waring Stick Blender and a lab stirrer. 
Need to Upgrade to a proper indistrial set up. 

What kind of mixing vessels do u use for small scale production like 100-150kg, specially for beginners in this industry. 

I cannot invest in 2-3 machinery but need only one for both high shear and low shear and scrapping walls. My supplier is also talking about only 2 mixers- 1 homogeniser and 1 scrapping stirrer low RPM. 

Any inputs much appreciated!