[suswang8]

@Fekher
Can I ask how much ethanol you would ordinarily add in to a preparation?  I’m assuming it’s about 5%…and that you add this at cool down?  Thank you.

[suswang8]

Just a suggestion:  I would email a company like Glen Mills to ask what all they have that can deliver results that fine.  That would be much faster.  From what I see on their Web site, probably half of their offerings cannot do what you’re looking for.

[suswang8]

I would recommend mentioning the approx desired end particle size. 

[suswang8]

Also in the United States, and I have to add that it is not possible for me to find all the ingredients that I need from online stores.  One example of an ingredient that is basically impossible to buy right now in small quantities in the United States is the bakuchiol.  There are loads of other examples, but hopefully you will fare better.

[suswang8]

I’m not an expert, but from what I have gleaned online:

-1-  You are better off using multiple emulsifiers, rather than a single one. Keep in mind that most of the Montanov products are combinations already.  If something is labeled as a co-emulsifier or secondary emulsifier, you definitely cannot use that as your sole emulsifier, and the typical advice is that even if you are using a product that is labeled a primary emulsifier, the recommendation is that you try to include at least one additional emulsifying ingredient.

-2-  I am not sure if I would even attempt 1 to 3.5.  It seems as if most people use a ratio of around 1 to 4, and that 1 to 5 often works, but the risk of instability increases.  Yes, I believe you need to add up all emulsifiers as part of your calculation.

-3-  A polarizing topic on here recently, but the consensus seems to be that you can increase stability by including a component such as xanthan gum.  Xanthan gum itself is not considered an emulsifier or co-emulsifier, though.

[suswang8]

Thank you.  I will research that.  I guess my point above was:  It seems odd that so many online natural formulators seemingly use/recommend xanthan gum if it’s not a good ingredient.

[suswang8]

My sense is that they “forgot” to mention an ingredient or two on the label.  

I believe it is possible with certain expensive homogenizers to blend the other components without emulsifiers (others will opine), but I doubt this manufacturer has such a machine.

[suswang8]

Elirit,
You said you disqualified sorbitan stearate due to price, but may I ask where you are finding Montanov 202 cheaper?  

If you are looking for inexpensive sorbitan stearate, Making Cosmetics has it.

[suswang8]

Well, for that matter, how many customers tell you that they want something that feels more oily? On that basis, you would never put oil into a product.  ))

I’m asking because I am doing all-natural skin care, and it seems that it is the recommendation of a lot of people online that xanthan gum is a good way to increase the stability of emulsions, while also being being a natural component.  Secondary to all of this is that for some preparations, I need to increase  the viscosity a bit, but that aspect is not so important.

[suswang8]

Did you experiment with the more expensive types? Are you saying that you do not like gums at all, or that you just do not like xanthan?

[suswang8]

Many higher-end, top-quality facial skin products use multiple types of hyaluronic acid.  I do believe that at least one published study found that very low molecular weight hyaluronic acid is pro inflammatory, so for the moment, I am steering clear.  I do wonder how these components differ in their function from humectants, such as glycerin, which also purportedly draw water to the skin.

[suswang8]

Any takers?  Also curious as to which of the above are known for being more sticky.  Thank you.

[suswang8]

Replenix/Topix, which is a well-known company, used to have this as as part of their product description for their Replenix CF Cream:  “One bottle of Replenix CF cream provides your skin with the equivalent to approximately 500 cups of green tea.”  This text is actually still visible on certain resellers’ Web sites.  As the product is only 1oz in size, I emailed the company to ask how this claim was possible.  No reply.

[suswang8]

 I am a total novice, but I think if you provide  a few more details, you are likely to get more informative answers: 
-1-  Any particular reason why you are using such a high concentration of oils?  I would imagine that you could accomplish your goal of being truly moisturizing with far less in the way of oil.  
-2-  Please confirm if you are using any butters, or only oils liquid at room temperature.  Some oils are more viscous than others, so if you insist on keeping the concentration of oil as is, perhaps you can switch to different oils to help accomplish your goal?
-3-  I am curious as to how you settled on 20% ZO.  It is true that this is used by a lot of formulators, but what makes you so sure that you need to use such a high concentration in order to achieve a good UVA and UVB protection level? 

[suswang8]

Pharma said:

Depends on the quality you’re using. Non-deoiled non-hydrogenated will tend to be more shiny.

The two have their benefits as much as any other emulsifier, it all boils down to your expectations and the type of formulation you’re using.

Thank you.

I definitely want to use only non-hydrogenated .  I am not sure about the oiled/non-oiled aspect.

I would be using it as my sole or primary o/w emulsifier.  It sounds like you are saying I might be better off trying the powder (non-liquid) variety if I wanted a more matte finish, or not necessarily?  

@chemicalmatt I might actually go the route of regular, liquid soy lecithin, unless I am convinced otherwise.  🙂  I am still not sure if using lysolecithin (vs lecithin) is better for my purposes.

[suswang8]

Friendly note that these tests were done in vitro, not in vivo, so no one has any idea how this would align to the concentration you should use on the skin.  We know that azelaic acid is currently in use at 15-20% in prescription formulations, so consider that as one data point to consider.  Perhaps you could experiment with 5% or so?  Topical zinc sulfate has been used at 5% concentration in at least one study.  These are just guesstimates as to what you could consider using, not taking into account other actives you might want to use.  Keep in mind that hair loss/growth is an extremely complicated science, hence the reason the FDA has approved literally one topical treatment during the last 30 years.  

The others can advise you about formulation, but keep in mind that the more alcohol/propylene glycol that you use, the more irritating the formulation will tend to be.

[suswang8]

Separate “citric acid” question:  Is it ever acceptable to add minute amounts (e.g., 0.05%) of citric acid during the water phase if one knows in advance that the pH will be too high?  (It seems like standard practice is to always test the pH and add citric acid during cool down.). Thank you.

[suswang8]

I don’t think this is the best forum for this question — better to try another one on the Internet, such as through Reddit.

This question, even there, is very difficult to answer.  It is believed that it can take some time for certain exfoliants, including retinoids, to help blemishes emerge (purge).  In other words, for certain people, their skin might look worse for a while before it gets better.  How long does this process take?  In theory, it could be up to 30 days.  So for certain, if a product is clearly worsening one’s acne beyond 30d, the product is causing breakouts — not purging.    

But obviously it is possible that some one could use a product for even a single day and break out from it.  There are people who might label that as “purging,” but you cannot really say for sure unless you give it time.  

Note that this only applies to exfoliants:  AHA/BHA/retinoids.  I have never heard of a single dermatologist saying that a moisturizer, for example, *without* an exfoliant could cause purging. 

[suswang8]

Spectrastat G2-N or Euxyl K903

[suswang8]

Trying to remain silicone free :smiley:, but thank you.   Maybe I will try reducing the sorbitan stearate?

[suswang8]

emma1985 said:

Pharma said:

I decided against stick blenders when I stumbled upon that crap cheap Ultra-Turrax-like Chinese knock-off thingamajig. I ordered it a few days ago.

I wonder whether or not it will be any good or last long… likely not useful for more than 1 litre but that’s fine with me and probably not doing well with high viscosity emulsions (not so fine with me).

I’ll keep you in the loop.

I have it and it works an absolute charm for me. Instant (seemingly) emulsification, it’s a beast and introduces 0 air. I will say, you have to turn the knob about halfway for it to get going. I don’t know why but someone in my Facebook group said the same. 

You CANNOT stir with it. It’s far too powerful. I use it first to emulsify then switch to my overhead with propeller attachment.

It homogenizes extremely well while the product is warm/hot and liquid, the efficacy decreases as the product gains viscosity (I’m sure you know this.)

Make sure you clean the attachments really well before using it. I ended up with some metal bits my first time using it. 

You will never need to use it at the highest speed. Not even close.

Hi, Emma.
When you say “instant emulsification,” is this the kind of device that instantly whitens a preparation?  I ask because, as part of a separate chat I was having with another board member, some are of the view that emulsions will instantly turn white (a la the famous commercials of making mayonnaise) because of the introduction of air, which is what seems to be happening with me and my Dynamic mixer (and something most stick blenders are guilty of).  I know you said it seems to introduce 0 air, but I was just curious about how you sensed it was instantly working.
Many thanks.

[suswang8]

I am trying to buy as few ingredients as possible so I don’t end up with an entire kitchen full of garbage that I do not use, but one thing that I felt I had to get in order to be an all-natural baby was sodium phytate….which of course ropes you in to getting citric acid.  I’m not happy that I will have ounces and ounces of the stuff left over as I use it in such minute amounts, but whatever.  

What pH are you going for? I think my requirements are only that the formulation be below 6, and in my most recent test case, I did not have to add any citric acid when using sodium phytate at 0.2%.  I believe the unscientific paper strips give me a reading a 5.5 to 6.

[suswang8]

I am a total newbie, but I am betting the pros on here will first want to know what exactly is in your formula (and specifically what could be causing the stickiness)?  

[suswang8]

Graillotion said:

suswang8 said:

Thank you.  I actually just bought the same beaker for the same reason.

In terms of aeration, do you find you need to stir air out of your batches after you’ve used the homogenizing tip?  Or not necessary?

I’m trying to decide between this, the Ocis 2.0, or maybe a used Turrax from eBay.  Hmmmm.

Actually funny you bring that up….when I send samples of the cream to my test group (all of whom have some skill set in cosmetics), one of the first things they ask me…..is how do you get a product with no air in it???  I don’t know the answer….that is just how it comes out.  
Let me first say….the equipment seen in your video…is EXACTLY what I use (Dynamic version….same company).  I use Montanov 202 as a primary emulsifier, and also include a polymeric and some carbomer.  So my emulsions thicken instantly when the phases are combined.

So no…I do not NEED to stir air out….but I do stir (with a spatula) at least 10 times t/o cool down.  The tall narrow beaker….allows me the keep the head submerged…so I suspect very little air is introduced.

Hi, Graillotion.
I got the Dynamic and did a first test using this blade:

Although I had the head submerged, it seems like it still incorporates a bit of air.  My results were very similar to what that lady above on YouTube got — except she was using the Blender Tool homogenizer — with a thick, marshmallow/meringue-type texture.  I want to get the Blender Tool, largely because I could use it with smaller samples, but not if it too adds in air.  

I might also try this blade:

Did you find the Blender Tool incorporates less air than either of these two blades?  Also, are you using your device slanted (at an angle)?

Thank you.

[suswang8]

A recent study showed that glycolic acid at a pH of 4.0 is very effective.  If you were looking to do an AHA+BHA product, I am not sure how effective the BHA would be at this pH.  You would have to research.  But certainly you could create a less irritating AHA by raising the pH to this level.