[suswang8]

It’s a homogenizer — keep in mind that even if you go to IKA’s Web site, you will see that some of their homogenizer tips look different than others.

Keep in mind you can only use the Dynamic up to a certain viscosity (I forget the max, to be honest), and I think the max suggested run time is 90 seconds.  The other downside (for some) is that the head is quite big comparatively, so you would struggle to use it for quantities under about 200ml.

Which homogenizer do you have now? 

[suswang8]

Thank you.  Is this to say I have to use an additional solubilizer of some sort?

[suswang8]

I can only echo a few key points above:

I think @MarkBroussard ‘s point about actual extracts vs “pre-packaged” commercial preparations of extracts is an important one — maybe not a reason to not use plant extracts, per se, but definitely something important to keep in mind for formulators.  You have to read the semi-fine print.

And @Perry’s important point about environmental waste:  consider estimates that it takes 4 to 5 dozen roses to produce a single drop of rose oil.

Also, as has been discussed a couple times on this forum, because many extracts are highly pigmented (e.g., pomegranate) and alter the color of the final product, formulators very often are forced to use only a small percentage of each active.  Again, this is not a reason to avoid using plant extracts, but something to keep in mind in terms of how seriously to take the bragging rights of consumer product packaging that mentions certain natural actives.

Regardless, I’m still an all-natural baby.  o:)

[suswang8]

I asked about this topic a while ago, but got no responses 😐 .

@Pharma and @PhilGeis: 

1. How do you “wipe” them with the ethanol?  Do you just spritz and let them air dry, or use a towel to wipe them? 
2. Do you feel ethanol is better than isopropyl alcohol?
3. Should one be concerned about an alcohol “residue” and thus follow the alcohol up with some deionized water afterwards?

Thank you!

[suswang8]

Thank you, all.  

Update for anyone with interest:

The company Cosphatec, mainly known for its premium xanthan gums, views its lysolecithin as a co-emulsifier that functions as a sole emulsifier when used at a 4% concentration.  I have used it at 4% in a hand cream with 20% oils, and it feels very nice (silicone-like, as some have said).

For facial moisturizer purposes, I can confirm that 1% soy liquid lecithin creates a fairly shiny/dewy finish, and if you add 1% lysolecithin to the same preparation (i.e., alongside the lecithin), the product becomes almost completely matte.

[suswang8]

I asked a similar question a while ago, and it seems like one doesn’t have many options — assuming you cannot change the actives?  

The consensus on this forum was that most manufacturers are using only very small quantities of certain pigmented ingredients listed on their packaging, hence they don’t have the issue you are describing with a final product that is “this brown.”

What about using golden/yellow toned ingredients (e.g., calendula oil etc.) to assist?  

[suswang8]

Thank you, all.  

@Pattsi
Lotioncrafter says (citing the manufacturer, allegedly) that tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate can go up to 80 degrees C, but perhaps I should just add it in cool down?  But if I add both that at 3%, along with 3% ethanol (a possible addition), at cool down, that might be a bit much for my formulation to handle.  For the bakuchiol, all I see is to “avoid prolonged heating above 75 degrees C.”  I basically just heat until 80 degrees and then blend blend blend, but maybe I am hurting the actives?   

Thank you.

[suswang8]

@ngarayeva001
@Pattsi
@Graillotion

For what it’s worth, the manufacturer claims that its lecithin (as sole emulsifier) can handle up to 10x its weight in oil (e.g., 0.8% should be enough for 8% oil).  https://www.cargill.com/personal-care/applications/skin-care-face

Regardless, I do have sorbitan stearate on hand.  How does glyceryl stearate compare?  I need something that is really non-comedogenic.  

Thank you.

[suswang8]

+ behenyl alcohol 0.8%, which I believe is considered a co-emulsifier.  

[suswang8]

Homogenizer here, so at least I have that part covered , although maybe it’s not doing the greatest job.  And the product does seem to be fully “homogenized” for about 24h after blending, if that matters.  

8.00%	Sweet Almond Oil
3.00%	Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate
0.80%	Lecithin
0.80%	Behenyl Alcohol
3.00%	Ethanol
1.00%	Bakuchiol
76.10%	Water
3.00%	niacinamide
1.00%	Green Tea Extract
2.00%	Glycerin
1.00%	Spectrastat
0.30%	xanthan gum

(I forgot to add my sodium phytate, but I don’t think that would have effected short-term stability like this.)

I dissolved the GTE and niacinamide into water, then added my xanthan/glycerin slurry.  Put that on the burner.  I separately heated the almond oil, lecithin, behenyl alc, vitamin c, and bakuchiol potion.  I then added the water phase into the oil phase purty slowly, mixing by hand.  Then homogenized for a couple of minutes.  Then added ethanol and Spectrastat.  

[suswang8]

Personally, I think that there is a major difference between the two.  If, by “exfoliation”, you are saying that skin is essentially coming off the face, that would basically never happen unless someone had really dry skin or were using retinoids, or both.  My first question would be whether the person is currently on retinoids.  Next question, is the person putting sunscreen or make-up on top of the moisturizer?

[suswang8]

Can i ask if you have tried purchasing a larger/better blade attachment?

[suswang8]

At a minimum, I would boil the water first.

[suswang8]

I assume you are using the overhead mixer at a very high speed?  (Otherwise, they usually don’t add much air.)

It seems like you are asking (1) whether you are safe to use a homogenizer with this emulsifier, and then (2) for recommendations for a homogenizer?   I’m pretty sure the answer in this case is Yes to number one, but regarding number 2, I think you should provide additional details in order to get the best recommendations. What is your budget, what size preparations you want to create, etc.

[suswang8]

Also, @Pharma: 

-1-  Is it your gut instinct that it is the brewed tea solution that is more likely the culprit in my formula or the (powdered) green tea extract?  I ask because I prepared a hair conditioner with 1pct green tea extract and it has held up…so far, at least.

-2-  I thought ascorbic acid serums are notorious for oxidizing easily?  I assume this issue is not relevant for someone like myself who just wants to add a small percentage (1%?) of it to a preparation? 

Thank you.

[suswang8]

I believe that green tea extract has a solid track record in published medical journals with respect to its beneficial effects on skin.  How exactly it translates into things like improving hyper pigmentation, skin brightness, skin moisturize, wrinkle depth, etc., I do not know, but you can say the same for many actives.  

Please note there are other actives or oils that you can use to help counterbalance the color, and there are also green tea extracts available that are not necessarily the deep reddish brown color that you probably have right now.  

[suswang8]

Thank you.  So you think I need to change both my preservative and add an antioxidant?  And for antioxidant, you vote for using ascorbic acid, rather than tocopherols?  (I thought ascorbic acid was notorious for oxidizing quickly and easily?).   I do plan to add tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate eventually, but I did not want to waste money testing with this active before getting the other components right.

Pharma said:

Several issues I see:

- Caprylhydroxamic acid (the main active, utterly non-natural ingredient in Spectrastat G2 Natural) is a potent complexing agent for zinc and copper and mainly acts through complexing said trace elements within microbes. Adding that much herbal extracts (green tea) will introduce considerable amounts of many different metal salts which will bind and inactivate caprylhydroxamate. Phytic acid is not strong enough to counteract this (no commercial chelate is though green tea polyphenols might partially help…) and hence, you are highly likely to have killed a good portion if not all of your main preservative. The little bit GMCY in your blend will not hold.

- Green tea contains different types of polyphenols. Many of which have a catechol unit or in other words are great chelates for iron and other metals (often stronger than phytic acid), oxidise readily (can’t be reduced by bakuchiol, the only antioxidant you use), and polymerise further to form dark pigments. What you need is a strong antioxidant and an airless, light-proof dispenser. At least add ascorbic acid or, less natural but more efficient, metabisulfite, dithionite, or similar. This will help more than trying to find an adequate chelate. BTW an antioxidant will turn iron into its +2 form which is a lot less of an issue regarding pro-oxidant effects.

- Lecithin plus high loads of herbal extracts are tough to preserve. I don’t think that discolouration is due to microbial growth rather than oxidation but I’d still be very wary about your preservative strategy even if you were to switch out caprylhydroxamic acid (something you should really consider doing).

[suswang8]

Spectrastat G2 Natural 

[suswang8]

Thank you.  And which specific component do you think is going rancid or discoloring?  It is the brewed tea, I assume?

[suswang8]

Interesting.  i had thought color changes happened mostly from not having a chelator.

Do you suggest ye olde tocopherols?  

I noticed today that the scent has started to change as well. It’s not bad, per se, but not as nice as it used to smell.

[suswang8]

(I forgot to note that, for the brewed green tea, I used water that had previously been boiled and then put through a “Zero” water filter, which I believe is roughly the equivalent of using deionized water.)

[suswang8]

Did anyone mention ethanol as a potential penetration enhancer?

[suswang8]

@MarkBroussard (and others):
I might be misreading, but is it correct that if the product tests bug-free at 28 days, in all likelihood it will remain as such for three years?  (I am assuming these mikrocount slides must be very sensitive.). Thank you.

[suswang8]

I would recommend a better headline/title as well

[suswang8]

Charge a lot…and then give everyone on here half 8~~}

On a serious note, what do you mean that you can “make enough to supply her”? Are you planning to manufacture this product on an ongoing basis for her?  So you now need to bill her for both the original product development and the ongoing delivery?