[SaraLee]

Graillotion said:

SaraLee said:

Graillotion said:

Use GLDA at half the rate…on cationics.

I’d love to get my hands on some, but as a hobbyist I haven’t been able to find a small batch source.  If you know of one I’d be forever in your debt!  How about sodium phytate?

Ahh….not sure where you live…but if in the US….you can get it here.  It also took me a long time to realize that MC was using a synonym, instead of the common nomenclature:

TSGD (Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate) 1602 | MakingCosmetics

Oh my gosh!  Thank you!!

[SaraLee]

Graillotion said:

SaraLee said:

Abdullah said:

EDTA is also incompatible with cationic surfactants

Oh really? Wow! I thought EDTA was commonly used in cationic conditioners

Use GLDA at half the rate…on cationics.

I’d love to get my hands on some, but as a hobbyist I haven’t been able to find a small batch source.  If you know of one I’d be forever in your debt!  How about sodium phytate?

[SaraLee]

Pharma said:

That amount of wax results in solid oil droplets. Depending on the speed of cool-down, the emulsifiers won’t have a chance to organise properly.

These solid oil particles will have a positive charge which plays well with honeyquat but not so much with xanthan gum. I suspect that these two polymers will ‘clog’ around the oil particles and allow them to flocculate.

Personally, I would use a non-ionic polymer instead of xanthan.

Natrasil can go into the oil phase and might help making these less high melting and more flexible.

As mentioned above, PEG-100 stearate should also help and you might even use it instead of coco glucoside.

Ok good to know!  So something like HEC should work then?  I’ll try adding the natrasil in with the oil phase next time too.  Thanks!!

[SaraLee]

Abdullah said:

EDTA is also incompatible with cationic surfactants

Oh really? Wow! I thought EDTA was commonly used in cationic conditioners

[SaraLee]

ketchito said:

@SaraLee Make sure you’re adding both Xanthan gum and EDTA to the water phase. Also, try adding PEG-100 stearate at the same level of your Glyceryl stearate. Also, add Sodium benzoate in the cool down phase (around 50°C).

Very helpful thanks!!

[SaraLee]

They also have a 20 lb bulk option if you need non-hobbyist quantities.  https://lotioncrafter.com/products/surfpro-sci-20lb-bulk?_pos=2&_sid=6b419d281&_ss=r

[SaraLee]

Lotioncrafter just switched to a palm free coconut derived SCI.  https://lotioncrafter.com/products/surfprosci?_pos=1&_sid=6b419d281&_ss=r

[SaraLee]

PhilGeis said:

These are really poor “boosters” - esp. vs Gram negatives and their esterases.  

Do you prefer Glycols?

[SaraLee]

Ok super helpful thanks!!  @jemolian thanks for the breakdown!   I updated the formula based on your inputs and more research.  Thoughts?

Emollients

·        5% organic mango butter

·        5% organic coconut oil

Humectants:

·        2.5% vegetable glycerine

·        2.5% propanediol

·        1% honeyquat

Emulsifiers:

·        2% montanov 202 (Arachidyl Alcohol, Behenyl Alcohol, Arachidyl Glucoside)

·        1% Glyceryl stearate citrate

·        2% glyceryl stearate

·        3% cetearyl alcohol

·        .2% siligel (Xanthan Gum, Lecithin, Sclerotium Gum, Pullulan)

Skin feel enhancers:

·        2.5% natrasil (Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables)

·        2.5% cetyl esters

Preservation:

·        .1% sodium phytate

·        .4% tocopherol

·        .7% Phenylpropanol

·        .3% ethylhexylglycerin

·        1% Jeecide CAP-7 (Caprylyl Glycol (and)
Glyceryl Laurate (and) Glyceryl Undecylenate)

·       
Lactic acid pH to 5

[SaraLee]

Ok thanks so much!  Updates based on your input below.  I included siligel in  place of the carbomer, upped the mango butter and cetearyl alcohol for viscosity and changed the emulsifier to 202, GSC and glyceryl stearate based on the rave reviews on this forum.  Thoughts?

Emollients

·       
5% organic mango butter

·       
5% organic coconut oil

Humectants:

·       
2.5% vegetable glycerine

·       
2.5% propanediol

·       
1% honeyquat

Emulsifiers:

·       
2% montanov 202 (Arachidyl
Alcohol, Behenyl Alcohol, Arachidyl Glucoside)

·       
1% Glyceryl stearate citrate

·       
2% glyceryl stearate

·       
3% cetearyl alcohol

·       
.2% siligel (Xanthan Gum,
Lecithin, Sclerotium Gum, Pullulan)

Skin feel enhancers:

·       
2.5% natrasil (Hydrogenated
Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables)

·       
2.5% cetyl esters

Preservation:

·       
.1% edta (sodium phytate)

·       
.4% vitamin E

·       
.3% DMDM Hydantoin

·       
.2% potassium sorbate

·       
.5% glucono delta lactone

·       
Lactic acid to pH 4.5

[SaraLee]

Thanks again for all the feedback!  I definitely have some experimenting to do   Any experience or thoughts on any of the emulsifiers in the montanov line?  After doing more forum digging as recommended by @Graillotion I’ve read some good things from other forum members.

[SaraLee]

Thanks so much for all the feedback everyone!  What are your thoughts then of combining GSC with glyceryl stearate or GS SE (and would one be better than the other) and dropping the coco glucoside?

[SaraLee]

Thank you for the feedback!  I’ll definitely go back to the drawing board on some of those things.  I’m using siligel at .3% and I could always add more xanthan gum if you think the formula could benefit from it, but yeah ecocert frowns on carbomers and crosspolymers.  I’ve spent hours (and hours and hours lol) pouring over the forum especially on topics like emulsifiers and preservatives.  This is one of the only resources I trust for accurate information.  I’ll definitely continue researching and reading everything I can find 🙂 My concern with dropping the pH is if I add an anionic emulsifier couldn’t that affect the performance of the emulsion?  And glucosides are so high in pH naturally I was nervous to drop it too much although I don’t know why theoretically it would affect it since it is non-ionic.  I’ve been told ecomulse is especially bad for being able to formulate with a lower pH.  My source for GSC says to keep the pH above 5.5

[SaraLee]

Ok I will! Thanks so much!  Very helpful info

[SaraLee]

Ok thank you so much for the advice. Will do! And thanks for your service!

[SaraLee]

I also just found a blend of phenylpropanol (70%) and ethylhexylglycerin (30%) claiming to be broad spectrum.  Would it fall under the ester category you mentioned though?  Sorry for the 3rd degree - I’m just a high school graduate/house wife/former Marine trying to learn as much as possible and not fall into the chemophobic trap that is the internet 

[SaraLee]

Thanks Phil!  pH is 4.5.  Would phenoxyethanol or benzyl alcohol be more preferable as a replacement for the glycol? Or phenethyl alcohol?  I’d also like to limit the likelihood of dermal irritation or allergic reaction to any ingredients.  I’m concerned about my non-ionic surfactant based shampoo (coco glucoside) inactivating a benzoate which is why I was leaning towards sorbate as a fungal/yeast preservative.  Any reason you prefer benzoates?  DHA would more serve as a booster right? Not to prevent contamination, but to reduce growth potential?  Is it overkill to throw it in with a broad spectrum blend?

[SaraLee]

I’m planning on trying it in a few different formulations including a non-ionic surfactant based shampoo and a cationic conditioner, but for now I’ll just post my lotion formula which uses anionic surfactants as emulsifiers:

 61% distilled water

 5% cacao butter

 10% coconut oil

 10% olive oil

 8% ecomulse (Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate)

 2% vegetable glycerine

 .2% sodium dehydroacetate

 .2% potassium sorbate

 .5% glucono delta lactone

 1% Jeecide Cap-7

 .3% siligel (Xanthan Gum, Lecithin, Sclerotium Gum, Pullulan)

 .2% edta

 .1% vitamin E

 1% vanilla extract

 .5% essential oil (depends on fragrance)

Heat water and oils/emulsifying wax separately to 140F. Blend together water and gums with immersion blender. Slowly pour in oils. Add remaining ingredients and blend thoroughly.

[SaraLee]

Hi! My name is Sara and I’ve been using this site as a resource for years! I’ve been making my own products for household use for the last 5 years.  My formulas have steadily improved over the years as well as my understanding of formulating concepts.  I’m excited to be a part of this community!

[SaraLee]

Thank you for sharing your anecdotal experience. I appreciate you taking the time to respond!

[SaraLee]

Ok gotcha! Good info, thanks for your reply!

[SaraLee]

I know the thread is a few years old, but it’s great information thank you! Does the cost when calculating margins include hidden costs like shipping, labor, returns, depreciation, overhead, etc? Or just the straight up cost of the goods themselves? TIA!