[Robert]

Abdullah said:

I will start with 0.5%.
Decyl glucoside reduces viscosity.

I will add it at the end after everything else has been mixed.

I do not think decyl can reduce viscosity, it just not thicken enough so I suggest lauryl glucoside to give higher viscosity 

[Robert]

toketsu said:

Meemcha said:

Among my favorite ingredients are peptides, vit C (been playing with 3-0-ethyl ascorbic acid lately), ceramides and salicylic acid (not in a same product though). 

How do you like 3-O-ethyl ascorbic acid? I played a bit with it, it oxidized even quicker than plain ascorbic acid ((

I do not agree with you regards 3-O-ethyl ascorbic acid because it is the most stable structure of all other ascorbic acids,  but you should add anti-oxidant as well with it

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert I agree with @Abdullah and @zetein. Find the right amount of PEG-120 that gibes viscosity but doesn’t gel. For instance, try with 1.5 or even 1%, if you still need some viscosity, inctease your Cocamide DEA. You could also do yourself a favor, and wliminate (or drastically reduce) Glycerin. No real benefit and it might be impairing your foam.

I think @Paprik is right, first sample confirm his comment, I will do more samples to be sure as well.

[Robert]

zetein said:

@Robert I’m sorry I meant more surfactant and more lower molecular thickeners. Betaine and glyceryl oleate and cocamide DEA are good and you can try increasing them to remedy the viscosity after decreasing peg-120.

Do you think SLES will not freez or gelled if I try it without adding Salt too much? how about HPMC use? can it solve the problem or it will precipitate 

[Robert]

Abdullah said:

Use less Peg-120.

@Paprik what was your problem with po65? 

I have no problem with it. 

i know peg-120 is the main problem but I thought there is alternative way to fix this, because no alternative to Peg-120 especially in super clear formulations, do you have any surfactant suggestion?

[Robert]

zetein said:

Do you mean the texture becomes gelatin-like when cold? You can try thicken with higher % surfactant, and lower molecular thickener (alkanolamides, amine oxides, betaine, propylene glycol laurate , etc), but less higher moleculars that crosslink micelles (peg-150 distearate, peg-120 glucose deoleate, peg-150 pentaerythrityl tetrastearate) and less salt.

Also there some water-soluble emollients can help with the gelatin issue, but I forget which.

yes exactly gelatin like texture especially when you rub it with your hands, I need very clear thick liquid soap, If I discarded Peg-120 and betain and Glyceryl oleate and cocamide DEA, how could I maintain high viscosity? I have not added Salt because it can blur a little the clearness of liquid. Do you have suggestion for Surfactant system can give super clear liquid and thickness.

[Robert]

Paprik said:

You would need to share your whole formula mate. 

I already cringe when I see coco glucoside as a “primary” surfactant. I personally do not like it much. 

By the “gelling” issue, you mean the whole product gels or just at the pump? Coco glucoside does this - it kind of dries and can block the pump where contact with air. 

Please share you full formula and method and we will be able to help you  

the whole product gelling not just in the pump, also you can see gelling when you rub it on your skin,

My formula as below:
Coco glucoside 55% active     10%  I use it here to avoid SLES gelling 
SLES 70% active                       2%
Betain 45 active                      2%
Cocamide DEA                         1%
peg-120  Deoleate                  2%
Glycerin                                   3%
Lamesoft PO65                         1%
And no salt Added because i need super clear liquid, very clear and thick liquid is the target formulation

[Robert]

chemicalmatt said:

The short answer here is: affirmative. All will emulsify dimethicone with limits on loading.  Better if you can add a PEGylated dimethicone as co-emulsifier. Better yet use the BETAC instead of CETAC for best result. I’ve found the behenyl quat combined with SPDMA/Lactic acid works best for emulsifying silicone oils. An aside: unless it is already part of a silicone gum blend ingredient in the formula, I’ve never understood why anyone would add D4/D5 cyclomethicone alone into a cream or lotion for topical use, or a hair conditioner. It does not do anything but evaporate; why it’s called “volatile silicone.” 

thank you for help, Regards Volatile oils use in creams I am using them to add slipp to hair conditioners besides they leave no residue on hair after application, I can consider them also as a solvent for other types of silicones

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert You just need to check Dow’s and Momentive’s silicone catalogs, and check the emulsified ones to see what systems they use.

thank you I already checked them, most of them using Peg- as I see

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert Did you make a sample,to see how it performs? I hope you’re using a good preservative system. For the backbone, I’d advise you to use Alfa olefin sulfonate instead of the glucoside (since it’s cheaper, you can use more and have a higher level of surfactant in your formula). Also, you could replace your PQ-7 by Guar HPTC at 0.15-0.2%, unless you’re making a clear shampoo. I wouldn’t use Cetrimonium chloride in this formula, but stick with a polymer.

performance is not bad actually, but regards olefine i faced viscosity problems so I used glucosides just because of the viscosity.. regards Polyquatrenium-7 it has lower build-up and better feel on hair when you have low surfactants percentage, 

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert Did you check for products on the market to see how they do? Most biphasic comercial products have non polar emollients, water and inorganic salts. Inorganic salts (like chlorides and phosphates) are added as density balancing agents, to temporarily create a mixture once you shake the bottle, and delay phase separation. 

Cetrimonium chloride being water soluble, will try to emulsify part of your silicones, and bring that to the water phase (that’s why you don’t have a clear water phase). If you want to add an emulsifier to delay phase separation even further, choose one that has same affinity for both phases  and at very low level (let’s say at 0.05% total active matter).

as @Abdullah mentioned the target product should be unstable emulsion base and it will give creaming after couple of hours, the market has some products and they include high percnetage of silicons and there is an emulsifier also, for transparent liquid I think surfactant like betaine can do somthing here but there will be unwanted foam and do not know if it will be ok as leave-in ingredient

[Robert]

Abdullah said:

What you want to make is an unstable emulsion that do creaming after 4 hours. 

I would say remove NACL or add higher amount to make it more unstable. 

Or use spdma instead of Cetrimonium chloride at higher pH and it will separate more easily. 

thats right, what is SPDMA?

[Robert]

ketchito said:

@Robert You could solve the issue if you remove Cetrimonium chloride, but I don’t think i’d hold for 4-5h till separation. You could try increasing your salt (you could even add some phosphates) and adding some ethanol. 

If I removed Cetrimonium chloride i can not got an emulsion phase upside, it will separate immediately to oil phase and liquid phase.
Regards phosphate why should I add it?
I tried Ethanol and it has not work, 

[Robert]

very simple formula:
cyclopentasiloxane 15%
Dimethicone 1%
Cetrimonium chloride 1%
water to 100
Salt 0.25%

I tried many formulas but never give the lotion phase and transparent phase.
this is a leave-in hair conditioning formulation by the way.
target product should take 4 or 5 hours to start separation and separation should be transparent from the beginning no place for blurred phase.

any one can help it will be very appreciated @Pharma @PhilGeis

[Robert]

Dear friends, I mention a specific cause as a general formula, meaning I exclude all other ingredients to be the problem so as a general formulation have optimum ingredients could an extra emulsifiers cause something like this?  I will add another question in the same way, Could an extra emulsifier decrease absorbance of the cream from skin? it will make it take more time to be absorbed ,,  I hope that I made my point Clear! @Graillotion @ketchito

[Robert]

I am making crystal clear hair pomade with ceteareth-25 but even with increase percentages i could not get some of the brands solidity of the product, I need a product to be harder should I add something else?

[Robert]

I forgot to mention that it is a transparent product!

[Robert]

Hi Bill, could you please help me in this point regard hardness, I already fill my product at 70 c but hardness still not enough, i tried to stop slow mixing while filling but i could not because surface area of the wax solidifies quickly. My product is hard but not as much as some brands in the market, I tried longer carbon chain emulsifiers but has not gave big difference there, I do not use any extra viscosifier in my formula by the way.

[Robert]

I am putting 3% usually for 15% oils

[Robert]

Actually I have not add any structuring agents here because the product is emulsion spray so I need low viscosity emulsion but stable. I thought high emulsifier will dehydrate skin more and may affect skin oils,

[Robert]

what if the emulsifier was more than enough in lotion is this can affect performance or stability?

[Robert]

as a general formula I have no specific percentage of oils, so If i start with 10% oils should I add 3% of the emulsifier? should I consider non-polar oils more?
Usually I do not calculate HLP and I do an empirical emulsifier percentages in my formulas

[Robert]

as I mention in my reply above Can we consider it as a new form of emulsion combining performance of w/o and stability of o/w?

[Robert]

thank you for the detailed answer, it is really helpful. lets discuss this point if I consider adding more than 2% of fatty alcohol and adding very little amount of like a tween in a very little percentage besides high percentages of low HLB emulsifiers of w/o I think we will get something very similar to w/o cream in performance and more stable as o/w emulsion but you can consider it a new type as a mixed emulsion, do you agree with me in this point?!????

[Robert]

yes I mean water in oil,