[RedCoast]

How foamy do you want it? Foamier than the typical OTC product?

[RedCoast]

Geranium EO is rarely used by itself, or at least the predominant note… it’s often combined with other rose EOs or other citruses, mints, or woods. It’s a common “blender” EO, much like how jasmine EO is. I often see geranium + lemon EO in Korean beauty products!

Do you think you’ll add 1-5% silicones, especially cyclomethicone? You might want to try ethyl macadamiate… it would work with a “macadamia oil” theme.

Can you get jojoba esters yet? You can find jojoba esters 15, 30 and 60 in more repackers now. I was surprised how much I liked jojoba esters 60-it didn’t feel oily. The Gold Bond Ultimate Healing Hand Cream does have jojoba esters in it, and the olive oil Innisfree hand cream has it, too.

I think it’s a good idea to have the Gold Bond hand cream I just mentioned as another good reference product… it’s on the “drier” side, and it will give you more ideas how some people like their hand creams.

Are you considering adding hydroxyethyl urea? Or are you going to use glycerin or a plant-based glycol?

Uh-oh… you nail down this formulation, you’ll have customers trying to barge through your door… are you sure you’ll be ready for that?

[RedCoast]

Koreans are hugely concerned about these 3 things:

1. Pollution

2. UV-induced aging and hyperpigmentation

3. Irritated, dry, sensitive skin

They really like multipurpose formulations… SPF + anti-irritant + brightening products. But they also can’t stay away from exfoliation. They will use physical scrubs everywhere… yes, even on their hands! (Usually 1-2 times a week, though.) They will also consistently use chemical exfoliants… is it any wonder they complain about sensitive skin?

“Cica creams” (Centella Asiatica Extract or the highly-purified

Madecassoside) are hugely popular, but they also like licorice root extract (and purified derivatives) and allantoin. Niacinamide and ceramides are often found in those cica/anti-irritant/”recovery” creams as well. 

To Koreans, skin types are a huge deal… yes, even for hands. So, expect to formulate at least two hand creams… a heavier hand cream for the winter and a lighter one for summer. They also like hand masks!

Your assumption is right for natural ingredients… they gravitate towards “natural” like bees to honey… and they don’t like parabens.

I think they’d tolerate a heavier, greasier hand cream, especially if they lived in the colder/mountainous regions of South Korea… I was surprised to learn their winters are just as cold where I live! But it’s a great idea to formulate it (if possible) without an oily residue.

They do like fragrance and essential oils… I’ve seen geranium essential oil in their products, but not necessarily in hand creams.

Are you going to use oils or butters sourced from Hawaii?

BTW, a good hand cream is something that’s moisturizing (that lasts through handwashing), but doesn’t leave a greasy or sticky feeling. Gold Bond Ultimate Healing Hand Cream is a fantastic example… and it’s hugely popular among cashiers, janitors, and nurses aides, etc. who constantly use their hands and clean a lot.

Also… almost forgot to add…Koreans like novel and interesting textures/emollients. I see it mostly in facial cleansers, but this gives you some leeway with hand creams.

Be aware the Korean market is fiercely competitive… it would be a good idea to have great packaging, if you can. It’s good that you are a perfectionist, because this will be a time-consuming project.

Good luck! If you have any more questions for me, I’m all ears!

[RedCoast]

Allantoin at less than 0.5% concentrations typically doesn’t recrystallize if you dissolved it at 50 C/122 F (or above)

Oops… I forgot to put an asterisk there… and I forgot to upload a specific document to give you a better context. *facepalm* I was in a hurry, so silly me.

@abierose you should find this document I attached on allantoin’s solubility and chemical stability useful.

Apologies for any confusion!

But basically, the hotter the water (or another solvent), the better it will dissolve…but recrystallization will be an issue if you have 1) higher concentrations of allantoin, 2) don’t have the proper rheology modifiers and emulsifiers and 3) you add them at the wrong time.

Also, if you use water as the primary solvent, and if you have significant amounts of allantoin… be prepared to give up % of other ingredients in the formula.

[RedCoast]

abierose said:

@RedCoast thank you for the helpful feedback…you and @Graillotion ere immensely helpful in explaining how I should be using Allantoin. I appreciate you taking the time to explain things to me 🙂

You’re welcome! The information on how to formulate with allantoin is surprisingly scarce!

@Abdullah Do you think you inadvertently created an irritating fume? I didn’t know that could happen with those two ingredients!

[RedCoast]

@abierose yes, getting ingredients for creating cosmetics is my form of splurging, too! I could easily go broke! :p

Allantoin at less than 0.5% concentrations typically doesn’t recrystallize if you dissolved it at 50 C/122 F (or above), you dispersed it well, and if you have a stable emulsion. Liquid crystal or polymeric emulsions would work. Having carbomer (carbopol 940) or xanthan gum in the formulation helps a lot, too.

@Graillotion have you done the “car test” yet? AKA, imitating if a customer accidentally left it in their car on a warm, sunny spring day? It would be a good idea if you made balms or something they’d bring to fitness clubs.

[RedCoast]

You may be better off going anhydrous. Water-free beauty products are becoming more popular, particularly with the “natural” market. This could save you from some headaches if your clients’ preferred retailer lists more “unacceptable” preservatives in the near future, or if your clients get more paranoid about ingredients in general.

Just out of curiosity… do they accept dehydroacetic acid? It’s common in many “natural”  products, but not everyone accepts it.

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MarkBroussard said:

@MattTheChemist:

Since this is a brand selling to professional market and not the consumer market, the labeling rules for consumer market products do not apply.  Their LOI on the website may be different from the LOI on the packaging … the FDA regulates labeling as it applies to what is required on the packaging.  So, the LOI on the website may not be in the order that you might see on their packaging.

What they are doing here is dispersing the Zinc Oxide in the carrier oils, blending it in the Aloe Vera Juice and then jamming the whole thing together with higher molecular weight hyaluronic acid.  This approach is very process dependent and will most likely separate over time since it does not contain an emulsifier.

So, I would not jump to any conclusions based on what you’re seeing on their website.  However, if what you are seeing is coming directly from the packaging, then it would appear that there are some labeling errors.

I’d been to dermatologists over the years, and they gave me sunscreens that I knew were stock formulations… but none of them ever had ILs like that!

I know a few individuals that DIY sunscreens and they occasionally sell them online…they’re not accurate with their labeling, either! That IL looked like what the DIYers I know would do, which is why I got very suspicious.

I didn’t expect a brand that targets professional markets to have such a suspicious label… but then again, it appears that brand target spas, and spas aren’t necessarily known for their quality.

[RedCoast]

Graillotion said:

RedCoast said:

 try dicaprylyl ether, dicaprylyl carbonate, or neopentyl glycol diheptanoate. They’re very light and silky! 

Are these available from repackers in the US…I do not recall seeing them?

@Graillotion No. You may have to go a roundabout way, as I have.

Sometimes, Etsy and eBay have them in smaller quantities.

FormulatorSampleShop carries some ingredients for a limited time. If you contact the store, they may have the ingredients you want in smaller quantities despite not listing them on their site.

Of course, you could always request free samples (via Prospector) or get dicaprylyl carbonate through Trulux (Australia). Trulux offers free shipping on international orders over $250, so if you have a long “to try” list and/or want them in larger quantities, this may be worth the expense to you.

But yeah, I’ve gotten several of the nicer emollients from overseas… UK, Germany, Australia… shipping was expensive and a pain, but IMO, it was worth it.

[RedCoast]

Climatechangeanxiety said:

@MarkBroussard potassium sorbate was the culprit after all. some others didn’t report a reaction it tho…but it made me burn all over. Why are some like myself so sensitive to it? Is it a certain skin type? Does anyone know? 

Thank you all!

Those with rosacea and atopic dermatitis will have more reactions, but there are some people even without sensitive skin that will have side effects.

Sorbic acid makes my face flush red like a tomato, (no reactions to potassium sorbate) but I don’t have what I consider sensitive skin. In fact, I can handle many “harsh” topical acne medications just fine.

My local dermatologist explained to me that 1) anyone can have allergies and sensitivities at any time and 2) she thinks genetics and hormones/hormonal fluctuations are involved in some reactions, particularly in women.

This paper here (full text) may interest you, as well as this one about sorbic acid (abstract).

[RedCoast]

I don’t have Naticide, but my best guess is it’s a combination of benzaldehyde, vanillin, and lauric acid. Lauric acid smells slightly soapy, and you can easily conceal it via vanillin and other stronger-smelling fragrances. So, it would make perfect sense (but sketchy nonetheless) for the company to label it as “fragrance.”

Yes, I’d steer clear from that one.

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@abierose if you can, you should try dicaprylyl ether, dicaprylyl carbonate, or neopentyl glycol diheptanoate. They’re very light and silky! I think you should get them if possible, if only to help you experiment with heavier creams and textures. Like Graillotion said, emollients are a very personal thing… some people like drier and silkier emollients than others (whereas some people like creamier ones), even if they have the same skin type.

You know, it’s like exploring perfume notes… infinite number of combinations, but there certain combinations you’ll favor more than others!

@Graillotion, ditto on the isoamyl laurate! It makes an awesome emollient for body butters! :smiley:

[RedCoast]

Have you tried FormulatorSampleShop yet? Sometimes, they have ingredients they don’t list on their site. Have you sent them an email about it?

[RedCoast]

MattTheChemist said:

@Bill_Toge @RedCoast @PhilGeis thank you. It seems I have open a can of worms with the professionals that use this brand/product. It really irks me when I see these brands not playing by the rules, when the rest of us do. I have no regrets exposing this. Thanks, again!

I feel the same way! The “natural” and “chemical-free” brands refuse to follow the rules the most! There were a couple of “natural” brands in the last decade that got nailed for inaccurate SPFs. I see tons of homemade sunscreens available to purchase on Etsy. They have zinc oxide, red raspberry seed oil, and just few other plant oils… they’re definitely not safe! Ugggh!

[RedCoast]

Graillotion said:

RedCoast .

I also enjoy pear, but 99.9% of the pear FOs are too perfumey! I’d like to see a close replication of a ripe bosc pear… seriously, have you smelled a fresh sliced one? I couldn’t believe how delicious and complex it was!

Do tell….about this .1% pear FO….  

(you found it…or are still searching?)

It wasn’t a pure pear. It was actually “Brandied Pear” from Candlescience, but they discontinued it, and they’re in the process of reformulating it into a “clean” scent… and I’m not pleased. :#

I’m still on the lookout for a pure, non-perfumey pear. I’m looking at a few supplers I haven’t purchased from yet, so we’ll see what happens.

Perhaps I can salvage the perfumey pears I have by adding clove and other spices. Maybe some tart fruit notes will enliven it. Or dilute it in enough florals. Yeah, salvaging perfumey FOs are tricky!

[RedCoast]

There’s a difference between fermented-derived/synthetic peptides that are supposed to “be identical to” or “stimulate” EGF, and human epidermal growth factor (rhEGF), the latter which is supposed to be sourced from human cells and produced from recombinant DNA technology.

The peptides you listed are fairly large, so they’d have difficulty in penetrating the skin. I don’t think they’d penetrate the skin at all, especially in the typical cosmetic emulsion. Those peptides would be allowable in cosmetics if the manufacturer proved they were safe and not drugs, AKA not penetrating the skin at all.

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Do you know of any commercial pet shampoos that are paraben-free? If you look at the ingredients list, you can get a good idea on how they accomplished it.

[RedCoast]

Yuzu is great! It’s described like being a combination of bergamot and grapefruit, but it smells a little more on the mandarin side to me. It’s also slightly floral and balsamic. It’s a citrus that lasts longer than the other ones, and you can blend it with all kinds of things… neroli and ginger included!

The only problem with yuzu (and other citruses) is that skin sensitization can occur if the oil is oxidized, so keep it in a cool, shaded, dry place. Minimize its contact with air if you can. If you make any face/body lotions and other cosmetics with yuzu EO, especially in “higher amounts”, I highly recommend you have your product undergo a human repeat insult patch test (HRIPT) before you bring it to market. I also recommend you do it with any products with essential oils in them, but be aware that some are more allergenic or sensitizing than others. Citrus EOs tend to be the more problematic ones.

Yes, I could talk about EOs and fragrances all day… not an exaggeration, either. You’re welcome! :smiley:

This is such a great community, I wish I was here earlier! Though I’ve been making up for lost time by pouring through older posts.

[RedCoast]

There aren’t any SPF boosters (ethylhexyl salicylate, etc.) in there, either. It’s missing the “juice” from the first inactive ingredient. Where are the preservatives?

The brand owner definitely isn’t being transparent.

[RedCoast]

@abierose 100% grapefruit EO smells too sharp and bitter to me, but I do like it in combination with other citruses! Bergamot and yuzu, to me, are more complex and balanced.

I also enjoy pear, but 99.9% of the pear FOs are too perfumey! I’d like to see a close replication of a ripe bosc pear… seriously, have you smelled a fresh sliced one? I couldn’t believe how delicious and complex it was!

Rosemary EO really shines in trace amounts, particularly for “forest” and oriental blends. But yeah, dominant rosemary perfumes are just too strong for me. Gardeners and Italians like it strong, though!

Supposedly, frankincense sourced from Oman is supposed to be the best and least musky/musty/earthy and heavy, but I haven’t tried it out yet. I’m okay with frankincense, especially in trace amounts, if the unpleasant musty and heavy undertones aren’t there.

Brambleberry has been on my “to buy” list for a while, and I may just purchase some of their woody ones soon. Their tea FOs look interesting!

You can’t go wrong with ginger, either, especially in trace amounts. Also, Neroli and ginger also go well together. I like ginger with cypress, too!

[RedCoast]

Abdullah said:

@RedCoast was it %2 glycerin in cleaning product or in the Product that is used after cleaning? Like lotion or cream

Yes, <2% in the cleansing product.

Now, for leave-on products (lotions), glycerin is an effective humectant in concentrations of 2%-5%+ .

You’ll see a few publications contradict each other on this (this one states glycerin is effective in 3%+ concentrations), but it all depends on the formulation.

This publication states dimethicone (“silicone surfactants”) are effective surfactants that also function as emollients.

[RedCoast]

chemicalmatt said:

@cmarie reduce the apple juice LOTS: malic acid in there is reducing your pH, rendering K Cocoate insoluble, thus the separation problem. Reduce glycerin to nearly zero, that will build viscosity. As I’ve so often opined: what is glycerin good for in any body cleansing product? Zilch, that’s what.

I saw in one older dermatological publication somewhere (I can’t find it now, but I’ll post the link if I do) that stated <2% glycerin counteracts the potential drying effects of surfactants… but we have so many newer surfactants now, that’s no longer an issue.

Yeah, you’re right: glycerin isn’t going to do a darn thing in cleansers. It’s just there to look attractive on the label in cleansers meant for dry and sensitive skin.

[RedCoast]

Oooh, you will have fun with ylang ylang and black pepper. So many possibilities!

I use Eden Botanicals for most of my EO purchases, with a few from Wholesalesuppliesplus. Are these suppliers cost-effective where you live?

Oooh, yes! I love juniper and pine scents! I like them just as much as the spicy/oriental ones! I’ve found that people who have lived in or near the Rocky Mountains adore those scents, too-it reminds them of home!

If you’re stuck with NDA… try cedarwood EO (Texas and Virginia are my favorites) + juniper + a hint of rosemary. I think you should get spruce EO if you can… out of the pines, I like spruce the most. It’s fresher, slightly balsamic, and doesn’t have that turpentine note. It’s more universally appealing, and you can blend it with black pepper! I like balsam fir, too, but some customers think it’s too balsamic.

Have you tried hinoki yet? That one is interesting, but it’s harder to blend. It’s popular with the Japanese, but I’ve found people in Southwest USA tend to buy it first, even if they’ve never smelled it before.

Have you tried palo santo? I love that one, too-it’s surprisingly versatile. It blends well with spruce and juniper and… black pepper. (Noticing a theme, here? )However, some customers (particularly those who dislike “incense” scents) may think it’s too harsh/intense/woody. Try using that in trace amounts and go from there.

@abierose, I totally agree. You can’t go wrong with a smoky vetiver… though I like using bergamot and yuzu more than grapefruit…but you can’t dismiss a more “simple” citrus if it works!

[RedCoast]

“Cruelty-free does not mean free from cruelty.” Perry is dead-on with this.

Literally all the plant-based ingredients would have to be certified organic, but even then there are problems.

Some farms (even the organic ones) participate in killing feral cats, which many cat-lovers find cruel. The farms that produce cosmetic ingredients would have to be certified/proven to help relocate the feral cats so that they don’t get euthanized. Furthermore, these farms would have to prove they’re helping native birds. Also, some people consider killing invasive bird species (that destroy the crops) unethical.

The legal definition of organic varies among countries. Sometimes, forests are cut or burned down to make space for (organic) farms. That should be considered cruel (based on the “cruelty-free” ethical framework, but I haven’t seen any major consumer advocacy group bring it up in regards to cosmetics.

@Graillotion, I’m curious about that, too. Rabbit ear testing produces too many false positives… but I’m wondering if that’s still permissible or done under certain circumstances? (Like for putting on instructions: “do not apply to pets?”) Agreed that letting kids drink soda and have unhealthy foods in general is way more cruel!

[RedCoast]

Graillotion said:

So ….anyone can chime in.  A natural fragrance for a night cream????

Something too sweet or too refreshing does not set the table well for sleep.  I have never been a huge fan of lavender… Can a relaxing scent be created with the components being discussed?  Would love to hear thoughts on this.  Something that is not too floral…with a twist of unisex, and a splash of universality….hehehehe.

Ylang ylang has actually been used (in small amounts) for sleeping/relaxation/insomnia essential oil blends. Ylang ylang III does it, especially if you have a generally balanced composition. You could probably get away with a slightly woodier undertone, especially if you blend it with bergamot. But I think Ylang Ylang II could be interesting to experiment with for a night cream…

I see bergamot in “essential oils for sleep” blends all the time, with varying % of it. I’ve made perfume oils and candles with it, and everyone agrees bergamot is relaxing. Blending it with a “hot” scent like black pepper wouldn’t be good for sleep-the contrast is too intriguing and stimulating, at least to my nose.

I see frankincense with the sleep/relaxation blends, but I tried it and didn’t like it… it was too musky. Maybe some other variants would work better, but I don’t know which ones.

How about trying it with clary sage? It has that “calming” camphoraceous note like lavender, but it’s not as intense and it’s definitely fresher/greener. It can have a topnote that can smell sharp to some people. Some people like that sharpness, but not everyone… I think it’s more calming for gardeners and people who love the outdoors.

Or maybe even blue chamomile. That one is surprisingly good and is on the “milder” side. It has a slight green apple note to me.

If you’re looking for universiality… I think ylang ylang and bergamot would be it. Clary sage can work, too, if you can minimize the potential sharpness.