[PhilGeis]

As jemplian said, follow manufacturers’ directions.   Solubility of some preservatives decreases at lower temps.  With precipitation, fluid dispensed from drums (for example) will not establish effective levels. 

[PhilGeis]

Aziz’s a “man behind” effectively does not exist, esp. as adequate satisfaction of the parameters of stability, safety, microiology may require data not just judgement.   
A large company will have “men” behind each discipline with data and data-based judgement.   A small company will deal with greater risk - fewer men behind and lesser testing capabilities. 

[PhilGeis]

Definition of and benefit “natural”.

[PhilGeis]

To Pattsi’s good point.  In 2017, FDA reported the >70 cosmetic sku’s recalled for micro issues - all from smaller companies most pursuing natural formulation/alternative preservation.  Previous years showed increases to this peak.  Following years saw consistent decline - <20 in 2020.
Also this - https://sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/lam.12995

[PhilGeis]

“Eco preservative” is marketing hype and that system is pretty weak and not natural. How much incidental water is actually in the bar and, if wetted, what is the pH? 
Likely you don’t need a preservtive but that is your risk to address.

[PhilGeis]

With that appropriate concern, there is no way this product should be distributed to consumers - even with compliant labeling
 21 CFR 740.10

A cosmetic is considered misbranded if its safety has not adequately been substantiated, and it does not bear the following conspicuous statement on the PDP:

Warning - The safety of this product has not been determined.

[PhilGeis]

I’d say the same Perry.  

[PhilGeis]

Yasmin123 said:

Because it’s going to be in and out of water all the time i would need a preservative?

Not sure what this means.  Will the bar be in standing water - as in soap dish - or allow water pooling on the bar?  Neither of thise scenarios lends itself to effective preservation.
Any chance you know the water activity of the bar?   Is there any incidental water in the product?

[PhilGeis]

One more - you can’t legally sell this as a cleaner in the US.  For that, all the ingredients must be on the TSCA inventory (https://www.epa.gov/tsca-inventory).  Further, the preservatives must be registered pesticides per EPA FIFRA - the ones mentioned are not only weak, very unlikely they’re registered.  

Think you should scrap this stuff.

[PhilGeis]

“eco preservative”?  Sure you need a preservative?

[PhilGeis]

Filtered tap water and mineral water.   Not sure what the picture shows but it looks pretty jury rigged.  Think you’re approaching cosmetic productionn in a pretty casual fashion.   The cleaning application (other than dishwash) isn’t a bad idea but prob ned to rule ou bacteria or it will eventually stink. 

Yes - Serratia marcescens famously produces a red pigment in culture and I’ve seen cosmetics contaminated with the bug turn red.   ozgirl also made the excellent point that iron (mineral water?) complexes with capryl hydroxamate of Spectrastat GB Natural (natural here BS - it’s synthetic) to produce a red complex.   But your EDTA should compete for iron.

In any case, you donlt know why it’s red and you are resp;onsbile to prove the safety of your product and you can;t.

[PhilGeis]

Are you using city or well water?

[PhilGeis]

That 6 people have used it without irritation is not relevant. This is an off spec batch not made as intended.  It is adulterated and you fail in your responsibility to consumer  to do anything else than scrap the batch.  

I sure understand it is painful to scrap the product and that you are poorly capitalized to absorb the loss.  That does not change the risk/your responsibility to consumers.   It may be as seemingly trivial as iron (alot of iron in your water?) and  the hydroxamic acid in Spectrastat (prob not - with EDTA in system).  It may not. 
This is a test of your business practices.  What is your evaluation of quality?

[PhilGeis]

Abdullah said:

PhilGeis said:

Whatever it is, you need to scrap it.  It is clearly adulterated.  And that is a pretty lame presrvative system.

You mean scrap only that red part or the whole batch? 

Spectrastat G2 from Inolex has 
%0.1 caprylhydroxamic acid
%0.75 glyceryl caprylate
%0.15 glycerin 
And they say it is broad spectrum preservative.
So at pH 5, with a chelating agent isn’t that enough for Shampoo? 

Yes - the whole batch. “Broad spectrum” is the marketing hype offered for every preservative and that is very weak system - esp. for a shampoo.

[PhilGeis]

Doe you think your ingredeints are clean?  Is there heat in your process?    Just get a content test of a representative packaged product.

The general objetive of cleaning products is to deliver it of apprpriate quality rather than ensuring consumers don;t screw it up.

[PhilGeis]

Whatever it is, you need to scrap it.  It is clearly adulterated.  And that is a pretty lame presrvative system.

[PhilGeis]

I’m no sure you need a preservtive for this hard surface cleaning product.  recall preservatives are intended to protect consumers in-use and that is of diominished concern with hard surface cleaning products.  

But be aware - preservatives used in household/industrial products must be registered as pesticides and in context of product application.  Suttocide A is an excellent preservative, and you must use the version registered with EPA for your application.  Do not use the cosmetic grade.    See: https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/057978-00004-20031106.pdf

I’m not aware that it’s “useless above pH 6.”  Matt can you elaborate?  As marketed, its pH is 10-12.
https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item.php?item_id=262

[PhilGeis]

Thanks zetein - one is in a pump and surfactants as raw materials are often also preserved .  Combination wth sufactants does effectively increase pKa - still, good luck with those.   

[PhilGeis]

I’m with you in preferring addition of individual preservatives.  Prepared mixtures lock you into ratios.  
I assume you’re not selling in Japan.

[PhilGeis]

Yes the combination is safe enough.  A formaldehyde releaser (e.g. DMDM hydantion, Germall, Germal II) with parabens was the most common preservative system through the latter 2 decades of the last century.

You should add EDTA.

[PhilGeis]

Tho DMDM hydantoi is high and I’d prefer nbezoate or IPBC over sorbate,  there’s no obvious reason your combination should be not work if pH is ok..

[PhilGeis]

Add rinse off (esp. surfactant based) or leave on emuslion.

[PhilGeis]

PhilGeis said:

Please heed Graillotion’s comments.    The objective oif preservation per FDA and EU is to protect in use.   A preservative system good “enough for a few  months” is like not enough.

Is LIKELY not enough.  I’m not in high school.

[PhilGeis]

Please heed Graillotion’s comments.    The objective oif preservation per FDA and EU is to protect in use.   A preservative system good “enough for a few  months” is like not enough.

[PhilGeis]

Climatechangeanxiety said:

@PhilGeis ok, so then I’ll try Sodium Benzoate, seems to be the popular rec on this board! Separately, do you think my use of maltodextrin makes it a greater “bug food” source, therefore might I need to increase my percentage of preservative?

Thank you in advance for your expertise! 

Assume you mean Na benzoate with benzyl alcohol?  I’d add EDTA and would not be that concerned that maltodextrin is bug food as much as its effect on preservatives.   Cepacia can grow in distilled water.