[Paprik]

Yeah, first coming on my mind is microbial contamination. 
Also acid environment can turn emulsion pink sometimes. 

And also, sodium hydroxymethylglycinate can turn formulas pink in the presence of iron. 

[Paprik]

Unclesid said:

@Paprik, it is a product that is being sold now however their manufacturer closed and left them w no formula only thing they had were LOI so we are in testing stages to match the benchmark. Thanks for info!

I see. Reverse Engineering can be quite fun, but also pain. 
Good luck with that. 
If you could share the LOI, someone could give you some tips  

[Paprik]

My first thoughts were : Are you trying to burn far or skin?  
Sorry, but the combination of Eucalyptus and Menthol in such a high inputs is … worrying me. Have you tried it? 

But to your problem. My coconut oil is really soft now, nearly liquid-y. We still have high temperatures here in NZ. As it’s majority of your product, that’s the problem. Add to that not that hard petrolatum and two liquid oils and there is no surprise it does not set into solid or balm consistency. 

Add some waxy material. That is how you build body into products. 

If you’re looking for something related with slimming or “Fat burning”, you really need to look for actives with IN VIVO efficacy data. 
E.g. Rhodysterol from SEPPIC. You can investigate that if interested. 

[Paprik]

@missmorganlang ; @GeorgeBenson .. thanks guys.
Will definitely try it. 

[Paprik]

@Abdullah, sorry mate, I do not answer for this.
I mostly use 350 at 1 - 2%. 
I bought the 10 fluid just for the feel, but haven’t really work with it yet. 

[Paprik]

@Abdullah, I have 350 and Dimethicone fluid, which is 10 cps. 

[Paprik]

Abdullah said:

@Paprik i mix dimethicone with oil phase, heat to 60-70°c and make the emulsion. 

Is it necessary to add dimethicone below 50°c? 

How do you add it? I mean when emulsion is made you reduce the temperature and add dimethicone, then do you homogenize again? 

I actually thought it should be in the oil phase too, but when I checked some suppliers data, they recommend add that below 50°C. So I do it. 

I usually add 1 - 2% only, so I add that with my heat sensitive ingredients in the cool down phase under low shear. 

[Paprik]

I add dimethicone under 50°C too. 
Don’t have any other explanation other than following suppliers recommendation.  

[Paprik]

@ketchito, yes I did. 
Yesterday I tried your method, adding HEC before anything else. I mixed til properly suspended and add a few drops of Sodium Hydroxide. To pH around 8 - 9. Waited until it cleared and thick gel formed (10 - 15 mins I think). Mix for couple more minutes and add my surfactant blend. Mixed til homogenous, mixed a bit more and adjusted the pH to 5.5 - 6.0. 

This morning (half an hour ago ) I went to my lab and … that damned separated layer was there.

I’m starting to think the HEC won’t be compatible with this load of surfactants maybe. I have Methocel, but wasn’t playing with it yet. Only ones and it didn’t go into the water easily like HEC, so I kind of gave up on it Guess big mistake. 

[Paprik]

Just a couple of thing to your formula. 

Iselux Mild -
Aqua (and) Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate (and) Cocamidopropyl Betaine (and) Sodium Methyl Oleoyl Taurate (and) Lauryl Glucoside (and) Coco-Glucoside

It has all surfactants. Not sure why adding more Cocamidopropyl Betaine?
Also, Isethionates and Taurates should thicken with salt present. Have you tried adding NaCl in 0.3 - 0.5% increments? Add after you adjust your pH to > 6. This may also help. 

Not sure how much of the ingredients are you using. Percentages are really useful for us. 

Totopherol acetate is pointless. It is not antioxidant for the essential oil, only for skin. However, in wash off products? No point. Change it for “normal” Tocopherol. 

[Paprik]

Thanks guys. @ketchito @Mondonna @Abdullah @Perry
I agree with Perry it does dissolve better in cold water. 

From my study with IPCS adding HEC before the surfactants is a no no. 
As those surfactants contain water too, the gum would not hydrate with all water available and after adding additional water (with surfactants) it will separate. But it is actually happening now. So will definitely try it. 
Thanks again  

[Paprik]

Why do you think HEC is not compatible with cocamidopropyl betaine? 
I checked some example formulations from suppliers and they are using it along with HEC.
(However I do have some issues with HEC now too. I actually made a post not long ago. Waiting for some help).

For surfactant systems it is recommended to use hydroxypropyl methylcellulose aka Methocel. 

You could use Xanthan Gum, but I would rather choose higher grade, otherwise you’ll end up with snotty stringy looking product. 

If you could also share your formula, we would be able to take a look and give you some tips.  

[Paprik]

lwere said:

Pardon the naive question, but what is the difference between a homogenizer and a low shear mixer?

Homogeniser does mix things under high shear. Creating a really small droplets. That helps with stability, feel, etc … 
Perfect for most emulsions. Not suitable for most polymers, as it cuts the long chains. 
Low shear mixing is mostly done by hand or overhead mixer. Like on the picture below - propeller for example. 

[Paprik]

Is this what you’re looking for? 

INCI Name:Citrus grandis (Grapefruit) Extract and Glycerol and Ascorbic acid

Grapefruit Seed Extract (GSE) is a powerful broad spectrum citrus based anti-microbial that can be used to extend product shelf life and protect personal skin care formulations against bacteria and fungus. GSE possesses strong antiseptic, germicidal, antibacterial, fungicidal and anti-viral properties and also acts as an anti-oxidant.

INGREDIENTS: Citrus Grandus (Grapefruit) Seed Extract (57%), Glycerol (37%), Ascorbic Acid (3%)
Contains NO
Heavy Metals
PCB’s
Pesticides
Propyl Hydroxybenzoate
Methyl Hydroxybenzoate
Benzethonium Chloride
Benzalkonium Chloride
Triclosan

USAGE:
1 - 2%, add post emulsification <40⁰c

This product is for use as a preservative only and is not recommended for internal use.

PureNature has it here in NZ.  

[Paprik]

@chemicalmatt, I remember @Perry mentioned they had/have a common practice to add water at the end to speed up the cooling (reduced cooling time from 6 hours to 2 hours if my mind works). You are saying it needs slow cooling down. 

When I do my conditioner, I use homogeniser for a few minutes (until smooth glossy emulsion forms) and after I let it cool down under low shear. 

[Paprik]

Adding primary alcohol (such as glycerin), glyceryl ethers and amides could help. 

[Paprik]

Thanks guys, that is what I thought! Cheers!

[Paprik]

What @Graillotion said and also ….

Please check your emulsifiers. Are you trying to create O/W emulsion or W/O?

And please, do not calculate anything. There is no general rule. Well, the 1/4 of oils may work for one or two emulsifiers. 

I wonder how the cream feels actually. And what is your skin type. I guess ultra dry?

[Paprik]

Abdullah said:

@Paprik i did measure these just once and concluded these results.

I weighted 1L shampoo with 10% surfactant and it was about 1kg.
I weighted 100ml lotion with ~10% oil phase and it was about 100g.
I weighted 100ml oil and it was less than 100g.

The important thing you say is “about”. 
When you scale up to hundreds kilos and you need to calculate the amount of product you need to make, this may become a big problem. As you may have not enough product or not enough packaging. 

Specific gravity is there for a reason. 

[Paprik]

I actually disagree @Abdullah. Usually surfactants (shampoos, etc..) need bigger volume to fill the amount. To fill 100ml would need a bit more than 100grams to fill the volume.

With emulsions (creams), it’s the opposite. To fill 50ml cream, you would need maybe 48grams of product. 

This is often part of stability testing, when you measure PG before and after in the actual packaging. 

[Paprik]

You need to realize that the cationic charge of CABP in <6pH is NOTHING in compare with anionic surfactant. It is perfectly stable and does not interfere with the anionic charge. That is also why you can use cationic polyquats in anionic systems. 

If you would use something like cationic emulsifier with anionic emulsifier (surfactant), then insoluble substances would form.

[Paprik]

Yeah, as @CedarS said. 
Check with supplier or get their datasheets. You should get all the information from there. How to incorporate into formula, how much, in-vivo efficacy data (for claims) and some formulation tips and more. 

Some actives are heat sensitive, so you add them <40°C. Some of them are added to oil phase and heated to 80°C, etc. It really depends. 

[Paprik]

The “problem” with hair is, the more you wash it, the more is produces sebum. Same with skin. People with acne like to wash their face often, as they think it will remove all the extra sebum and clear out the acne. However, when you remove the sebum/oil, skin thinks it’s dry and produces more and more. 
I do wash my hair everyday, but a lot of women do not. Yet, they can still have not-oily hair for days. It’s because it is used to it. 
I would maybe try to reduce the frequency of washing. (I know, it’s nearly impossible, at least for me. Imagining what transfers onto my pillow, having shower without pouring hot water on my head, etc … )
It should adapt over time. 

Also, if you literally strip your hair and scalp of all sebum (let’s call it harsh surfactant), no wonder it fights it back. Try something with more superfatting agent, to “re-hydrate” the hair and scalp. 

[Paprik]

I guess it all depends. For ultra oily hair you would like to have higher surfactant level, for super dry hair, you want something with low surfactant level. In both cases, you need to realize you need a lot of area to clean, each hair individually (if compared with hands or face). Plus good wetting etc. 

So it all depends and it is better to try it out on couple or more ppl. 
Plus, foaming does not mean cleaning. 

[Paprik]

Again, you cannot measure pH of an oil. The reading is not correct. 

It seems like you are using it in a cream (emulsion = contains water). 
Adjust the final pH of the formula.
Let it cool below 40°C, add your preservative, vitamin A and heat sensitive ingredients, mix and check and adjust the pH to 6 - 7. No problems at all Happy formulating.