[Paprik]

Thanks guys. @ketchito @Mondonna @Abdullah @Perry
I agree with Perry it does dissolve better in cold water. 

From my study with IPCS adding HEC before the surfactants is a no no. 
As those surfactants contain water too, the gum would not hydrate with all water available and after adding additional water (with surfactants) it will separate. But it is actually happening now. So will definitely try it. 
Thanks again  

[Paprik]

Why do you think HEC is not compatible with cocamidopropyl betaine? 
I checked some example formulations from suppliers and they are using it along with HEC.
(However I do have some issues with HEC now too. I actually made a post not long ago. Waiting for some help).

For surfactant systems it is recommended to use hydroxypropyl methylcellulose aka Methocel. 

You could use Xanthan Gum, but I would rather choose higher grade, otherwise you’ll end up with snotty stringy looking product. 

If you could also share your formula, we would be able to take a look and give you some tips.  

[Paprik]

lwere said:

Pardon the naive question, but what is the difference between a homogenizer and a low shear mixer?

Homogeniser does mix things under high shear. Creating a really small droplets. That helps with stability, feel, etc … 
Perfect for most emulsions. Not suitable for most polymers, as it cuts the long chains. 
Low shear mixing is mostly done by hand or overhead mixer. Like on the picture below - propeller for example. 

[Paprik]

Is this what you’re looking for? 

INCI Name:Citrus grandis (Grapefruit) Extract and Glycerol and Ascorbic acid

Grapefruit Seed Extract (GSE) is a powerful broad spectrum citrus based anti-microbial that can be used to extend product shelf life and protect personal skin care formulations against bacteria and fungus. GSE possesses strong antiseptic, germicidal, antibacterial, fungicidal and anti-viral properties and also acts as an anti-oxidant.

INGREDIENTS: Citrus Grandus (Grapefruit) Seed Extract (57%), Glycerol (37%), Ascorbic Acid (3%)
Contains NO
Heavy Metals
PCB’s
Pesticides
Propyl Hydroxybenzoate
Methyl Hydroxybenzoate
Benzethonium Chloride
Benzalkonium Chloride
Triclosan

USAGE:
1 - 2%, add post emulsification <40⁰c

This product is for use as a preservative only and is not recommended for internal use.

PureNature has it here in NZ.  

[Paprik]

@chemicalmatt, I remember @Perry mentioned they had/have a common practice to add water at the end to speed up the cooling (reduced cooling time from 6 hours to 2 hours if my mind works). You are saying it needs slow cooling down. 

When I do my conditioner, I use homogeniser for a few minutes (until smooth glossy emulsion forms) and after I let it cool down under low shear. 

[Paprik]

Adding primary alcohol (such as glycerin), glyceryl ethers and amides could help. 

[Paprik]

Thanks guys, that is what I thought! Cheers!

[Paprik]

What @Graillotion said and also ….

Please check your emulsifiers. Are you trying to create O/W emulsion or W/O?

And please, do not calculate anything. There is no general rule. Well, the 1/4 of oils may work for one or two emulsifiers. 

I wonder how the cream feels actually. And what is your skin type. I guess ultra dry?

[Paprik]

Abdullah said:

@Paprik i did measure these just once and concluded these results.

I weighted 1L shampoo with 10% surfactant and it was about 1kg.
I weighted 100ml lotion with ~10% oil phase and it was about 100g.
I weighted 100ml oil and it was less than 100g.

The important thing you say is “about”. 
When you scale up to hundreds kilos and you need to calculate the amount of product you need to make, this may become a big problem. As you may have not enough product or not enough packaging. 

Specific gravity is there for a reason. 

[Paprik]

I actually disagree @Abdullah. Usually surfactants (shampoos, etc..) need bigger volume to fill the amount. To fill 100ml would need a bit more than 100grams to fill the volume.

With emulsions (creams), it’s the opposite. To fill 50ml cream, you would need maybe 48grams of product. 

This is often part of stability testing, when you measure PG before and after in the actual packaging. 

[Paprik]

You need to realize that the cationic charge of CABP in <6pH is NOTHING in compare with anionic surfactant. It is perfectly stable and does not interfere with the anionic charge. That is also why you can use cationic polyquats in anionic systems. 

If you would use something like cationic emulsifier with anionic emulsifier (surfactant), then insoluble substances would form.

[Paprik]

Yeah, as @CedarS said. 
Check with supplier or get their datasheets. You should get all the information from there. How to incorporate into formula, how much, in-vivo efficacy data (for claims) and some formulation tips and more. 

Some actives are heat sensitive, so you add them <40°C. Some of them are added to oil phase and heated to 80°C, etc. It really depends. 

[Paprik]

The “problem” with hair is, the more you wash it, the more is produces sebum. Same with skin. People with acne like to wash their face often, as they think it will remove all the extra sebum and clear out the acne. However, when you remove the sebum/oil, skin thinks it’s dry and produces more and more. 
I do wash my hair everyday, but a lot of women do not. Yet, they can still have not-oily hair for days. It’s because it is used to it. 
I would maybe try to reduce the frequency of washing. (I know, it’s nearly impossible, at least for me. Imagining what transfers onto my pillow, having shower without pouring hot water on my head, etc … )
It should adapt over time. 

Also, if you literally strip your hair and scalp of all sebum (let’s call it harsh surfactant), no wonder it fights it back. Try something with more superfatting agent, to “re-hydrate” the hair and scalp. 

[Paprik]

I guess it all depends. For ultra oily hair you would like to have higher surfactant level, for super dry hair, you want something with low surfactant level. In both cases, you need to realize you need a lot of area to clean, each hair individually (if compared with hands or face). Plus good wetting etc. 

So it all depends and it is better to try it out on couple or more ppl. 
Plus, foaming does not mean cleaning. 

[Paprik]

Again, you cannot measure pH of an oil. The reading is not correct. 

It seems like you are using it in a cream (emulsion = contains water). 
Adjust the final pH of the formula.
Let it cool below 40°C, add your preservative, vitamin A and heat sensitive ingredients, mix and check and adjust the pH to 6 - 7. No problems at all Happy formulating.

[Paprik]

A tip: Get rid of the Sodium PCA. It’s expensive for a wash-off product. You can use a bit of Glycerin instead. 

[Paprik]

How did you measure pH of an oil? pH for oils is irrelevant.

You adjust pH of the formula once you manufactured it. The formula must contain water, otherwise, again, it’s irrelevant. 

[Paprik]

Perry said:

@Paprik - I don’t think mixing fragrances is a particularly good idea. It’s twice as challenging to get a matching scent from batch to batch. 

Great, thanks for confirming it  

[Paprik]

I never thought you could (should) mix fragrances. Never thought it’s a good idea. But might give it a try  
I’m struggling with a lot of fragrances. I don’t like them, but for some products they are kind of necessary. 

[Paprik]

Instability. In W/O emulsion you need to stabilise the water there, therefore you need oil compatible rheology modifier, so it prevents the water droplets from traveling and clumping together. 

[Paprik]

Yeah, stick to 0.5% maximum of Allantoin. This will work pretty good. No point having more of it. Add that to water phase. 
I would not say Niacinamide is pH sensitive. It works great between 3.5 - 7.5 (If I remember correctly). Which you should formulate within this range anyway. Add that in cool down phase though, it is stable in higher temperatures, but you don’t want to accidentally ruin it when you overheat your phase. 

I’m missing an antioxidant for your lipid. Grapeseed oil gets oxidised pretty easily. Also, you are mixing lipids with different polarity. So you double check stability. 

Your preservative is not natural whatsoever (Euxyl PE 9010). It may look more natural if compare with parabens, but it is not. It is pretty robust preservative, however only PET would give you your answer. To me however, it should be fine. 
Add chelating agent to boost it and get the pH close to 4.8.

Regarding protein, check with your supplier. So far I worked with heat stable proteins, so I used them in water phase. 

Hope that helps, happy formulating.

[Paprik]

It also depends on what surfactant you are using.
If you’re using sulphates, they are typically very strong and will solubilise the fragrance. Maybe isethionates too. The rest won’t do that job effectivelly. 

Also depends on the amount of fragrance you’re trying to incorporate. 

[Paprik]

Lowering the overall HLB value by adding low HLB emulsifier. As @Abdullah mentioned. 2-3% should help, you also build some viscosity to the product. 
Never tried it with liquid emulsifier. Could work too? 

[Paprik]

Perry said:

@Paprik - what convinces you that Sodium PCA is superior to glycerine as a humectant?

Frankly, nothing. It’s just from my IPCS study texts. I kind of believe that glycerin is the best humectant. Especially compering the prices. 
But also believe Na PCA is great. And not feeling tacky when used in higher percentages. 

[Paprik]

Is it a wash off or leave on product? 
If it’s leave on, the formula is … not good. 
You are basically putting heavy oil into your hair. What’s gonna happen? The hair will become greasy and heavy. 

The majority of your product should be volatiles lipids.
Up to 100% volatile lipid
Up to 20% non-volatile lipid
You can use some silicone gum or polymer if viscosity is desired. 
Oil soluble actives can be also added.

Try to formulate without fragrance first. Or add oils slowly and see when it becomes opaque. Some of your oils can be contaminated or so.