Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating How to stabilize the foam of this shampoo?

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  • How to stabilize the foam of this shampoo?

    Posted by abdullah on February 14, 2022 at 2:10 pm

    I recently made a Shampoo with only anionic and amphoteric surfactants. Flash Foam is good and creamy. The only problem is foam disappear very fast. Like complete disappearance in 1-2 minutes.

    What can i change or add to make the foam last longer?

    Shampoo ingredients in active

    SLS 2%
    SLES 4.75%
    CAPB 2.25%
    Guar hptc 0.2%
    Citric acid 2.1%
    Tetrasodium EDTA 0.1%
    NACL 1.6%

    pH 5 

    abdullah replied 1 year, 12 months ago 7 Members · 17 Replies
  • 17 Replies
  • oldperry

    Member
    February 14, 2022 at 4:25 pm

    More SLS

  • paprik

    Member
    February 14, 2022 at 5:54 pm

    Adding primary alcohol (such as glycerin), glyceryl ethers and amides could help. 

  • abdullah

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 1:56 am

    Perry said:

    More SLS

    I am using 3:7 SLS: SLES. What ratio do you suggest? 
    And should i suggest replacing some SLES with it or just adding more SLS?

  • abdullah

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 1:59 am

    Paprik said:

    Adding primary alcohol (such as glycerin), glyceryl ethers and amides could help. 

    By amide do you mean cocamide DEA or MEA?

    Can you name some glyceryl ethers?

    How  and how much glycerin can stabilize foam?

  • oldperry

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 10:36 pm

    @Abdullah - I would switch it 7:3 SLS:SLES

  • 1Armand2

    Member
    February 19, 2022 at 11:34 pm

    Perry said:

    @Abdullah - I would switch it 7:3 SLS:SLES

    I agree and I’ve tried!

  • abdullah

    Member
    February 20, 2022 at 1:44 am

    @Perry thanks
    I am using SLS powder and that would need 4% citric acid to adjust pH to 5. 
    SLS liquid will increase the cost too much because liquid and powder is the same price.

    Is there any other method? 

  • klangridge

    Member
    February 25, 2022 at 11:27 am

    You have fairly low surfactant levels in this formula -  a normal shampoo tends to have around 12% surfactant overall, which will produce more foam and also the more stable foam you are used to.

    I would suggest that an increase in viscosity will aid foam stability, as a thicker bubble wall will be stronger - are you able to introduce another thickener other than salt thickening, and perhaps increase guar level slightly as a foam booster? You may also consider different grades of guar as some are more effective at boosting foam than others - your supplier should be able to help with some suggestions.

  • abdullah

    Member
    February 25, 2022 at 12:10 pm

    Thanks a lot for suggestions

  • 1Armand2

    Member
    February 26, 2022 at 7:49 pm

    You have fairly low surfactant levels in this formula -  a normal shampoo tends to have around 12% surfactant overall, which will produce more foam and also the more stable foam you are used to.

    I would suggest that an increase in viscosity will aid foam stability, as a thicker bubble wall will be stronger - are you able to introduce another thickener other than salt thickening, and perhaps increase guar level slightly as a foam booster? You may also consider different grades of guar as some are more effective at boosting foam than others - your supplier should be able to help with some suggestions.

    Guar increases foam especially in 2 in 1 !

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    March 1, 2022 at 4:00 am

    Not directly related to the question but I believe tetrasodium EDTA is to be used in basic not acidic products. You probably need disodium.

  • abdullah

    Member
    March 1, 2022 at 7:28 am

    Not directly related to the question but I believe tetrasodium EDTA is to be used in basic not acidic products. You probably need disodium.

    A lot of people say so but they don’t say the reason for it and for several reasons i believe this may not be true. 

    1. The EDTA part chelates the metals not the sodium part. Sodium only increases the solubility like it does is sodium benzoate and sodium methyl Paraben.
    So why would it matter if it has 2 or 4 sodium while there is a lot of sodium in the product anyway?

    2. A lot of shampoos have tetrasodium EDTA but pH is not basic like this one 
    https://phique.com/product/phique-moisturizing-shampoo/

  • abdullah

    Member
    March 1, 2022 at 7:28 am

    1Armand2 said:

    You have fairly low surfactant levels in this formula -  a normal shampoo tends to have around 12% surfactant overall, which will produce more foam and also the more stable foam you are used to.

    I would suggest that an increase in viscosity will aid foam stability, as a thicker bubble wall will be stronger - are you able to introduce another thickener other than salt thickening, and perhaps increase guar level slightly as a foam booster? You may also consider different grades of guar as some are more effective at boosting foam than others - your supplier should be able to help with some suggestions.

    Guar increases foam especially in 2 in 1 !

    Thanks

  • ketchito

    Member
    March 1, 2022 at 1:02 pm

    Abdullah said:

    Not directly related to the question but I believe tetrasodium EDTA is to be used in basic not acidic products. You probably need disodium.

    A lot of people say so but they don’t say the reason for it and for several reasons i believe this may not be true. 

    1. The EDTA part chelates the metals not the sodium part. Sodium only increases the solubility like it does is sodium benzoate and sodium methyl Paraben.
    So why would it matter if it has 2 or 4 sodium while there is a lot of sodium in the product anyway?

    2. A lot of shampoos have tetrasodium EDTA but pH is not basic like this one 
    https://phique.com/product/phique-moisturizing-shampoo/

    It’s because of the dissociation constant of each carboxylic group in EDTA. Generally speaking, at a pH higher than 10, your structure will have those 4 carboxylic groups in the anionic state and ready to complex with metal ions. At a pH below 6, you’ll only have 3 (one will be protonated by H+); at pH below 3, you might have only 2 available carboxylic groups in the anionic state…which is basically disodium EDTA. 

    One reason to use tetrasodium EDTA in a product with a pH lower than 6 is both it’s availability and current price compared to disodium EDTA. 

  • abdullah

    Member
    March 2, 2022 at 2:04 am

    ketchito said:

    Abdullah said:

    Not directly related to the question but I believe tetrasodium EDTA is to be used in basic not acidic products. You probably need disodium.

    A lot of people say so but they don’t say the reason for it and for several reasons i believe this may not be true. 

    1. The EDTA part chelates the metals not the sodium part. Sodium only increases the solubility like it does is sodium benzoate and sodium methyl Paraben.
    So why would it matter if it has 2 or 4 sodium while there is a lot of sodium in the product anyway?

    2. A lot of shampoos have tetrasodium EDTA but pH is not basic like this one 
    https://phique.com/product/phique-moisturizing-shampoo/

    It’s because of the dissociation constant of each carboxylic group in EDTA. Generally speaking, at a pH higher than 10, your structure will have those 4 carboxylic groups in the anionic state and ready to complex with metal ions. At a pH below 6, you’ll only have 3 (one will be protonated by H+); at pH below 3, you might have only 2 available carboxylic groups in the anionic state…which is basically disodium EDTA. 

    One reason to use tetrasodium EDTA in a product with a pH lower than 6 is both it’s availability and current price compared to disodium EDTA. 

    So at pH 4-5 tetrasodium EDTA would chelate better or at least the same as disodium EDTA. Did i understand it correctly? 

  • ketchito

    Member
    March 2, 2022 at 4:08 am

    @Abdullah At a pH between 4-5, you’ll have trisodium EDTA instead of tetrasodium EDTA. 

  • abdullah

    Member
    March 2, 2022 at 8:00 am

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah At a pH between 4-5, you’ll have trisodium EDTA instead of tetrasodium EDTA. 

    Is it more effective chelator or less if weit is tri instead of tetra?

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