ngarayeva001
Forum Replies Created
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@Pharma, I am not disputing what you are saying about cetyl alcohol and coconut oil as an oil gelling agent, but water in oil emulsions are utterly unpredictable, and when someone without years of experience makes them they need all help that they can get (I am referring to the second emulsifier and several stabilisers). I made so many failed w/o that I stopped counting. I am just suggesting what I know would work based on my experience.
@africanbug, I think cetyl alcohol should be replaced with beeswax 2%. And the second w/o emulsifier might help with stability a lot.
https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/306/pcc-ask-expert-water-oil-emulsion-unstable-can/
I tried all polymeric emulsifiers listed in the article (except for Abil EM 180, I used Abil EM 90 is similar). If you can get PEG-30 DPHS (not only made by Croda) or Isolan GPS as your second emulsifier, it might solve your problem.
It would also help to add magnesium stearate at 0.5-1% (melt it properly, it has a high melting point).
Increase NaCl to 1-1.5% and keep in mind it’s early to celebrate success if it looks stable the next day. Sometimes W/O separate several weeks or months later.
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I thought it’s high internal phase W/O as there is salt as a stabiliser there. W/Os are extremely challenging and process sensitive. I haven’t worked with Olivem 900 but in any case you need at least two emulsifiers. You need stabilisers for both oil and waterphase. You are already using salt for the waterphase, now you need to add magnesium stearate or zinc stearate or hydrogenated castor oil or anything that works as oil gellant. You need an overhead stirrer that you would set up at low shear and water is to be added with a pipette by drops. You need to wait for the temperature to drop to <50C and only then apply high shear which will increase viscosity. And don’t do it for too long. Also, as it was mentioned above, your emulsifier might not be designed for making high internal phase w/o emulsions. You have to reconsider your emulsification system.
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Just a clarification I would not suggest to buy from them if you are making cosmetics to sell or you are developing something for scale-up in future. But if you are a hobbyist and don’t have access to samples from ulprospector it’s good enough.
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I guess as reliable as the most repackagers. You can’t be 100% sure, but I buy some basic stuff (polysorbates, propylene glycol etc.) from them and didn’t have issues (issues like selling polysorbate 20 as polysorbate 80, or GMS+PEG-100 as GMS SE for example). Most repackagers get ingredients from known big suppliers (Seppic, BASF, Dow etc.) but fail to provide supporting documentation.
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@Pharma, when you calculated sodium lactate did you assume it’s 100% sodium lactate? I decided to check how my lactic buffer template works (because I am not a chemist and I put it together based on my understanding) and run your numbers and it gives me 3.55. So my formula is either wrong or you assumed pure sodium lactate.
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https://www.mysticmomentsuk.com/products/coconut-fractionated-carrier-oil?variant=40711063822
They also sell their products through Amazon UK and Amazon US.
Btw they have reasonably priced D5 (which they simply call Cyclomethicone). -
@Graillotion, the way you can navigate amongst DYI suppliers, see if they say it’s fractionated coconut oil or C/C triglycerides in the description but ignore INCI because INCI is always the same. I know by experience that C/C triglycerides sold by makingcosmetics is a light highly polar ester. Very spreadable with a good slip and not greasy. They repackage ingredients from large suppliers and give them their own names. Fractionated coconut oil usually acts like vegetable oil, it’s heavy and greasy. Probably it’s less processed.
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Well, I guess it’s an irrelevant point for commercial-scale suppliers. C/C triglycerides sold on the DIY market vary significantly.
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Guys, reducing soaping without dimethicone is extremely hard to achieve if you use fatty acids and fatty alcohols. They would soap, it’s their nature. What you can do is to make a cream-gel type of product where you would achieve viscosity and stabilise the product by using polymeric emulsifiers (it better to be a blend of two or polymeric emulsifier plus some sort of carbomer). It would be a light product, not a heavy cream for dry skin.
Sepiplus 400 gives “silicony” feel without adding silicones. Not my favourite though, I would rather use a combo of Sepimax Zen/Sepinov EMT 10 or Aristoflex AVC/Sodium Carbomer (subject to % of oils).
All sold by lotioncrafter (if you are a hobbyist and need 50gr). -
If you analyse many commercial products, you will notice a common pattern:
Water, Glycerin, some sort of oil, GMS+PEG-100 Stearate, Cetyl or Cetearyl Alcohol or both, Dimethicone, some sort of polymeric emulsifier (Sepinov EMT 10, Aristoflex AVC, Sepigel 305 etc) for stability and improved texture. This is your bulletproof formula of success. Add a good preservation system and you have a minimalistic yet decent product.
You can always make it better by combining different fatty alcohols and esters, you can replace glycerin to glycols, you can add silicone elastomers and more than one polymeric emulsifier for even more fancy feel. You can replace veg oil to a light ester with high spreadability or a blend of oils and esters. But what I listed above is your “it will always work” base. -
The choice of emulsifiers is very strange. They have chosen very high HLB solubilisers to emulsify silicones and non-polar hydrocarbons. Surfactants are not made equal. They all have something they are good for and something they are bad for. Polysorbate 80 and PEG-40 HCO are solubilisers that are good for dissolving a tiny amount (say, 1%) of essential oil in a large water phase. Additionally to that, they have chosen bitter-tasting emulsifier.
Here is an example of a very popular lip tint (Benefit).
Water (Aqua), Polysorbate 20, Phenoxyethanol, Sodium Hydroxide, Carmine (Ci 75470), Methylparaben, Fragrance (Parfum), Tetrasodium Edta, Geraniol, Linalool, Hexyl Cinnamal, Citronellol, Maltodextrin, Benzyl Salicylate, Bht.
It has no oil but the fragrance, so they used polysorbate 20 which is a solubiliser to dissolve it, which is a reasonable approach. Note, no other oils here.
Here is an example of a high-end lip tint with oils (I suspect not too much anyway):
Water/Aqua/Eau, Glycerin, Sorbitol, Squalane, Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyldimethyl Taurate Copolymer, Brassica Alba Sprout Extract, Sodium Hyaluronate, Polymethylsilsesquioxane, Dimethicone Crosspolymer-3, Polysorbate 60, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate, Benzoic Acid, Isododecane, Sorbic Acid, Citric Acid, Benzyl Alcohol, Yellow 5 (Ci 19140), Red 33 (Ci 17200), Blue 1 (Ci 42090)They probably used Simulgel NS which is pretty much tasteless and is designed to stabilise different types of oils (subject to amount).
I know PEG-40 HCO is very bitter from my own experience. When I was much less experienced I confused it with another ingredient HCO (not PEG-40 just HCO) which is a wax, not a solubiliser and added it to my lip balm. And yes, it tasted awful.
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It’s not w/o it’s o/w. Just add a little of cetyl alcohol or some polymeric emulsifier such as Aristoflex AVC.
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Guys, just one thing to add. These two might have the same INCI but they have very different polarities. In a product where polarity is important you can’t swap them. In a o/w emulsion there’s probably no difference.
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A very weird product. PEG-40 HCO is bitter
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Thank you @Pharma. I read one paper on apple stem cells (a shorter version I suppose) and I also couldn’t get the logic behind it. At least now I know it’s not my lack of intelligence or education.
To add to this conversation, I was browsing the formulatorsampleshop website this weekend and came across a couple of ridiculous ingredients:
https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/Meteorite-Powder-p/fss22023-.htm
https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/FSS-Ruby-Extract-PF-p/fss20521pf.htm
https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/FSS-Champagne-Extract-PF-p/fss10130pf.htm
and the classics: https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/FSS-Diamond-Extract-PF-p/fss20520pf.htmIt’s a good supplier and they are very honest that all that nonsense is for claims (in the section skin benefits they list “perceived luxury”). I don’t really know what is first here a chicken or an egg. Is it the demand for diamond powder in skincare or it is the supply? Who knows but this is the way it was 500 years ago, and now. People are willing to pay a premium for snake oil. There are fantastic functional ingredients out of there, such as petrolatum that has a lot of scientific back up (nothing reduces TEWL better than petrolatum), urea, lanolin, good old glycerin, but who want to put “pee” and “petrochemicals” on their face? Apple stem cells sound “sciency” and champagne extract “luxurious”.
As the founder of Revlon said, we don’t sell lipsticks we sell dreams. -
Butylene Glycol is a solvent too. I am not sure how much resveratrol you will be able to dissolve though. Speaking of polymeric emulsifiers, they give nice feel. I would definitely keep them rather than Sodium PCA. You still need conventional emulsifier for stability, I really recommend getting Glyceryl stearate +PEG100 stearate. You would not have any problems with it. It’s bullet proof pretty much.
Re: squalane, you mentioned it’s for oily skin, I don’t think you need a lot of oils. If you want use several just add small amounts. -
I think the question is fundamentally wrong. It should be ‘why do you think xyz ingredient works’ not why you say it doesn’t work. Claims should be proven not the other way around. Having said that, I use a couple of ingredients with not enough evidence behind them myself (small sample sizes, or not double blinded). If peptides were cheap and easy to use I would say, who cares add them, but those are outrageously expensive and not compatible with polymeric emulsifiers. For me that alone is a good reason not to use them.
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@Pharma thank you! I am quite familiar with Isolan GPS. It’s very good as a secondary emulsifier. I often add it for stability, because I noticed with w/o you need at least two emulsifiers. I haven’t tried it on it’s own though, probably I should.
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What kind of pigments are you using and what is magnesium?
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@RockyStar you can add resveratrol to cool down phase. You won’t see much skin benefits from it though. It is normally should be dissolved in a solvent (read propylene glycol).
Sodium PCA, again, great humectant. I like it and use it but, not with polymeric emulsifiers. I will mess up sepinov (or any similar emulsifier). You can only add it at a tiny amount (like 0.2%). In fact I saw it in Chanel moisturizers most of which include Aristoflex and Sodium carbomer, but it’s somewhere below 1% line. Make a simple waterbased gel with sepinov, add 1% of Sodium PCA and you will see what happens.
Squalane, add as much as you want. It’s a stable hydrocarbon that is compatible with pretty much anything. I suggested to remove it because it’s expensive and the benefit doesn’t justify the price tag. -
Your formula doesn’t add up to 100%
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In general sodium benzoate alone is not sufficient. It’s usually used in combination with other preservatives. Preservatives are not designed to mask the smell of the product. Moreover, preservatives often don’t smell nice themselves. Although some people like the smell of Phenoxyethanol and think it smells like flowers. To me, it smells like a chemical weapon.
I heard of one exception, a preservative that is called naticide which is also used as a fragrance. It’s not a broadspectrum preservative, and you need to check at what pH it’s active. -
If you are dealing with acids, you need one. Otherwise, there is a huge risk to harm yourself. I only make acid peels for my own use, and my skin is very far from sensitive, I get away with using Hanna pocket pH meter with accuracy of one decimal point, but it can’t be considered a serious tool. Also, they need to be handled with care and should be calibrated after each use.
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@Perry, what is your opinion about sodium lactate? I find it one of the best because it’s more hygroscopic than glycerin and not sticky. It has one downside, being a salt, it breaks the gel network (for rheology modifiers like carbomers). I have been exploring urea recently, also like it, but it’s a tricky material..
Between glycerin and butylene glycol I would choose butylene glycol. -
@ggpetrov, I have different viscosities and I would say, 350 is a must, 5 is very useful, 1000 is also good for some applications. I don’t see much difference with the ones in between such as 10, 50, 100.