[mikethair]

Yes, agreed.

[mikethair]

Excellent advice. Thanks.

[mikethair]

Thanks for this. It’s good information to know.

[mikethair]

We manufacture some similar products and prefer to do the testing. Plus, we retain samples and our QC Manager will continue with various lab tests beyond the use-by-date.

[mikethair]

GoldenFish said:

Are there any written rules as to how to write an ingredient list for a label? I am hearing alot of “tribal knowledge” and different opinions in my group.

One is anything above the 1% line has to be in quantity order. And anything below the 1% line can be in any order? How factual is this? references please?

And you are producing cosmetics???

[mikethair]

I do a lot of formulations with high-quality essential oils for OEM/Private Label customers. In my opinion, purchasing ready-made essential oil blends may not produce the results you want.

The chance is that you will have inferior/low-quality oils and inferior blends.

But then, I guess it all depends on where you place your brand….. perhaps it doesn’t matter.

[mikethair]

Shouldn’t the lab tests be stated in your GMP SoPs for the product? We would fail our GMP audit if this wasn’t done.

[mikethair]

It’s marketing jargon.

[mikethair]

PhilGeis said:

Ghita - skin generally takes care of itself.

Yes, I would agree 100%.

With the research, I have done the skin mantle has the capacity to restore quickly.

We specialise in saponified liquid products, and the pH tends to be around 9.5. And interestingly, and again from some very old research (I’m in my early 70s), the cleaning effectiveness is enhanced at these high pH levels.

[mikethair]

I think that innovation is possible within the current environment. But you must be prepared to stick your neck out. And be totally committed.

I’m someone who has skin issues aggravated by synthetic surfactants and fragrances. And my partner has the same issues.

Being a scientist, I worked for a couple of years identifying the variables behind these skin issues. And luckily we had access to Dr Bronner’s products where they saponify oils to produce various washes.

We decided to go down the same path. I initially developed small Batch Manufacturing Records (BMRs) for a range of products. The challenge was developing the BMRs for the product bases using various plant oils. Once we had this under our belt, then essential oil fragrance blends that worked in these saponified bases.

I then scaled up to batches producing a few hundred bottles. At the same time, I developed the capacity of artisans in Viet Nam and now Malaysia to do this work. 

Additionally, I was approached by a company in Africa producing Shea Butter. I developed their capacity to saponify their Shea Butter and produce a range of liquid products. They are now doing very well and are selling globally.

So from where I sit, innovation is alive and well.

You can check out our saponified products here: https://indochinenatural.com/

And how it came about and our philosophy: https://indochinenatural.com/our-story/

[mikethair]

Good question. Pre-made soap noodles have added synthetic preservatives and sometimes other synthetics. Our saponified plant oils are entirely free of any synthetics.

[mikethair]

I think we are wandering a long way from my original premise. As an old scientist (I’m now in my early 70s), I am familiar with the published literature. And again, in our case with our saponified liquid body wash, face wash and shampoo, we are capturing those
consumers who are having reactions to the synthetics. And there are a lot of these consumers as we have discovered over 20 years. And this absence of synthetics far outweighs any other negatives.

[mikethair]

Yes, agree totally that preservation is for consumer protection, and the self-preserving elements of our saponified products fulfil this requirement. Plus, the total lack of synthetic preservatives which are causing consumer issues.

When you ask “What data do you have in that context?” can you please elaborate? What did you have in mind?

And in response to your comment, “you have a totally incompetent and negligent assessor,” I’m not big enough to question these guys. My assumption is that he understands the self-preserving elements of saponified liquids (body wash, shampoo, face wash). And this understanding is fairly consistent across EU assessors as we don’t always have the same safety assessor.

Thanks for your comments.

[mikethair]

It’s nothing of the sort. My post is a simple statement of fact if you bother to read and understand what I have written.

[mikethair]

The microbiology aspect is straightforward and routine. As required by the GMP Certification standards, on every batch produced we perform TAMC/TY&MC in our microbial lab and report on the results in the Batch Manufacturing Records.

Also, periodically, these results are validated by an external, certified microbial lab.

Interestingly, when exporting our liquid body wash, face wash, and shampoo to the EU, the safety assessor never required microbial data as they recognised the anti-microbial aspect.

I hope that I have adequately addressed your question.

[mikethair]

Yes, liquid soap is a ‘product of ages”…….whatever you mean by that. But yes, it has been around for a long time.

And the “revolutional” in my post is the attraction of customers to our body wash, face wash, and
shampoo due to their total lack of synthetic surfactants and preservatives.
We have discovered since we started producing 20+ years ago that many customers have skin reactions to synthetics. And the scientific
literature identified some synthetics as being endocrine disruptors.

[mikethair]

I’m not sure of your point here. When you say synthetic surfactants are milder than soap, what criteria are you using to measure “mildness.”

And are suggesting our data is “anecdotal evidence”? Being a scientist in my 70s, and perhaps I’m out of date, but around 20 years of data satisfying GMP Certified compliance is hardly “anecdotal evidence.”

And from our experience and that of our customers, the formation of
calcium and magnesium salts being detrimental to pipes has not been an issue.

And again, the attraction of customers to our body wash, face wash, and shampoo is their total lack of synthetic surfactants and preservatives. And many customers have skin reactions to synthetics. And the scientific literature identified some synthetics as being endocrine disruptors.

[mikethair]

Agree 100%

In our case with our saponified liquids we were capturing those consumers who were having reactions to the synthetics in body wash, face wash, and shampoo. And there are a lot of these consumers as we found out over 20 years.

[mikethair]

Correct. And this includes soap and liquid.

[mikethair]

The high pH is not an issue.

[mikethair]

Self-preserving? Yes. We have produced under GMP Certified conditions for around 20 years, and exporting globally. The pH of these liquid products is around 9.0 - 9.4 which inhibits bacterial growth. And we have microbiol tested every batch. Zero bacterial growth.

The scientific literature says that the skin mantle recovers quickly, this high pH is not a problem

The products? Liquid body wash, face wash, and shampoo.

[mikethair]

Thanks Abdullah.

[mikethair]

Hi Abdullah, How many formulations have you sold using this approach?

[mikethair]

And usual format of info?

[mikethair]

OK, and what would you suggest on the Excel??