MarkBroussard
Forum Replies Created
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When your solution becomes uniform. If it is not fully hydrated you will see balls of HA circulating around.
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No really … but let them try changing the mixing order of Citric Acid and see if that makes a difference.
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All they need to do is make a pH adjustment after fully hydrating the sodium hyaluronate. Is the issue that they are seeing a rise in pH even after making the pH adjustment or are they not making the pH adjustment at all?
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Perry said:The EWG skin deep database doesn’t rank ingredients by how well they align to people’s values. They rank them by a fear based metric - toxicity.
@Perry
I have only had 4 clients ever want to use the EWG database to reference products and ony 1 actually seek an EWG verification. So, i wonder just how influential EWG really is. But …
Go to EWG skin deep and enter “Bisabolol” … you get a nice, clean website with the 1-10 (green to red) scoring bar, a 1-2 ranking for Bisabolol in a green circle indicating it is safe. And a Concerns listing again with the green to red indicator lights. There is more detailed information on tabs. So, a quick glance and if you see a 1-2 in a green circle, the product is safe. If you see 8-9 in a red circle, it’s Danger Will Robinson.
Now go to CIR. Type in Bisabolol. You get a webpage that looks like it was developed in Y2000. Click on Report and a 10-page PDF downloads. You have to read the summary to understand the safety info.
Even though CIR is THE source for the most scientifically valid information it has not countered EWG by making CIR’s information available in a consumer-friendly format.
That is why EWG has been able to gain traction with consumers … it presents information in an easy to read format. Consmumers want a number in a colored circle. They are not going to read a 10-page PDF.
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@questioner
You can get PolySugaMulse D9 in small quantities from Formulator Sample Shop. If you do end up using PSM D9, the use the language “naturally-derived”. Never use the language “all natural” unless it is absolutely true and factual.
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You have to heat to about 50C for the Allantoin to dissolve properly
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Thanks, that article perfectly makes the case for:
(1) Passing the Natural Cosmetics Act
(2) FDA defining Natural
(3) Creating an FDA Natural seal for products to claim Natural and making those products go through a certification body just like Organic personal care products.
(4) Prohibiting “Free From” marketing
I would further add that the 1% rule should be eliminated and all ingredients must be listed in descending order.
All that’s needed is for Congress to act. The Natural Cosmetics Act is really good proposed legislation. It’s a shame that it is not getting more traction in moving out of committee.
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@Perry:
Yes, I do agree with you that performance has probably reached it’s practical limits and consumers cannot perceive the marginal incremental improvement in peformance between two well formulated products.
I think natural now thrives because it’s performance can be equally as good as products incorporating synthetics in some product categories and there has been a generational shift in consumer values. Younger consumers prefer to put natural oils on their skin. From their perspective, the closer you can get to the coconut, the better.
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“I posit this is the way many consumers experience using cosmetics, based on what they think and feel about ingredients/packaging. And it is very unfortunate that their feelings about ingredients are often misguided by fear-marketing and sensationalized news“
You’re talking about the dynamics of the last generation natural market and that has shifted significantly.Today’s natural market is more driven by consumers desire for natural products that align with their values, not so much by fear. That can be because the product contains free trade organic shea butter from Burkino Faso instead of Mineral Oil, for instance. Consumers find the product to be equally effective and they get the feel good benefit of financially supporting farmers hand processing shea butter in a poor country instead of Chevron. And, they’re not afraid of Mineral Oil, they just don’t want it.
The parabens controversy, for instance, is now 20 years old and is a settled matter in the context that it is baked in that there is a group of consumers who simply will not purchase products containing parabens. It would seem that, despite all of the evidence supporting the safety of parabens, a block of consumers chose not to believe mainstream industry, the FDA, CIR, European Commission, etc. Either the response was too slow, too tepid or these institutions lacked of credibility with these consumers or all three. No point in continuing to fight that battle … it has already been lost.
The only thing that matters is making products that consumers want and at the end of the day consumers’s preference rule. Ignore it to your demise, which is why you are seeing these reformulations to more natural formulations.
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Correction … 3,500 reviews on Amazon with 4.7 out of 5.0 stars.
What this also proves is that the majority of consumers like the new formula at least equally as well as the original formula. So, how is it possible that the “naturally” formulated product is “subpar” to the formula with synthetics and a “step back”? If it was “subpar” that would reflect in the reviews and there’s not much higher the synthetic formula could have rated if the “natural” one is at 4.7.
My goodness, how “unfortunate” it is indeed that consumers could like a “natural” formula just as much as they like a formula with synthetics.
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Mayday said:There’s at least a few consumers who prefer highly effective products over “naturally” formulated ones. Some reviews from Nivea’s reformulated lip balm:
Unfortunately, judging by the overall reviews, most consumers seem to be happy with a subpar substitute that “aligns with their values” and is psychologically comforting.
It’s one thing if a natural formulation is substantially equivalent in performance. It’s another when it’s a step back.
Your statemenet does not make any sense. The product has overall consumer reviews of 4.7 out of 5.0 on over 2,000 reviews on Amazon. Yet, you claim it is “unfortunate” that consumers like it because it is naturally formulated? That’s ridiculous. And, then claim the natural formulation is a step back and you post 2 negative reviews. Clearly, an overwhelming number of consumers like the product and it does prove the point that consumers like products that align with there values and are psychologically comforting.
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Linatural Ultra-2 + Sodium Benzoate + Chelator + pH might be a good place to start for pH < 6.0
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Advertising and marketing are two different things. Marketing, properly done, is pre-development to understand consumers wants, desires, needs, aspirations and you use that information to drive new product development, be it products, ingredients, packaging, etc. Commercial innovation is most successful if you develop what consumers are looking for as opposed to what you would like to sell them.
Advertising is push … trying to convince consumer to purchase something. But, it can also be used to try to convince consumers that they “need” something or a product is better because it contains X. Push advertising is very expensive and has a high risk of failure unless it is supported by marketing that validates that consumers want what you are advertising.
Yes, the retailer mandates can make it quite difficult and Phenoxyethanol is now a target with some. I usually advise clients to just avoid those retailers, not worth the risk.
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I don’t disagree with you at all in the negative effect that chemophobic marketing has on the use of certain ingredients and it presents some very difficult challenges for formulators and consumer safety. Countering that is the responsibility of the manfuacturers of the target preservatives and industry that use those preservatives. Perhaps the issue is a slow, tepid response by industry with factual evidence to counter those claims that allows those claims to resonate with consumers. Anyone can post anything on the internet at any time so it can be difficult for consumers to sift through all of the information and misinformation so it can be quite difficult to get a message to resonate.
As for marketing, understanding consumer desires/demand can actually drive innovation by companies in new ingredient and packaging development. It’s not a trick, view it more as fostering stretch goals for innovation. If consumer desires/demand can lead to the development of ingredients that are more sustainable, cleaner to manufacture, more recyclable, that is a good thing.
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Pattsi said:Common - anti-wrinkles, puffiness, dark circles under the eyes.
Eye cream is one of the most expensive and also one of the most useless of all.
Yes, the issues are caused by thin skin and a high concentration of small blood vessels in the area. Nothing you put on the skin is really going to help very much.
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Queen_Benin2468 said:MarkBroussard said:@Queen_Benin2468
The idea behind Pineapple Extract is that it may contain some trace bromelain in the extract to provide exfoliation. In reality it’s just a claim ingredient that won’t really do much, if anything. Just add 1% to your water phase. Bromelain itself smells strongly like the sewer.
Thanks alot, can I squeeze the natural juice and add to the water phase in 1% myself?
That’s up to you, but I am not a proponent of using unprocessed food stuffs in cosmetic products. I would advise against it. Like I said, it is just a claim ingredient for your label, it will have no effect in your product.
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The idea behind Pineapple Extract is that it may contain some trace bromelain in the extract to provide exfoliation. In reality it’s just a claim ingredient that won’t really do much, if anything. Just add 1% to your water phase. Bromelain itself smells strongly like the sewer.
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@Perry:
Your last point is the one that is most pertinent: “At the end of the day you have to make the products people want to buy” … which is my whole point.
Yes, cosmetic chemists & formulators shouldn’t ignore or disparage natural formulating … you offer a course in Natural formulating precisely for these two reasons, I presume.
No one can control the misinformation that consumers may have consumed on the internet except the people who propagate that misinformation. It is what it is and there’s no changing those misperceptions. I don’t condone it, but it is a fact of life and you simply need to be cognizant of it and factor it into your product development.
Yes, these consumers do indeed make purchase decisions based in part on ideology. There is nothing wrong with that. The issue is not so much that natural products are safer or work better, it’s that they align with the consumer’s values. Consumers are not scientists and it is not reasonable to expect that they will understand all of the nuances.
If consumers don’t want products with parabens, it is possible to provide them products without parabens since there are alternatives. If they want products made from natural, naturally-derived ingredients, nature identical ingredients, that is possible. The simple fact of the matter is that there are a plethora of ingredients that are natural, naturally-derived, nature identical, made via biotechnology, extraction, distillation, fermentation, green chemistry and simple, first-order chemical synthesis from biosourced precursor compounds. There is packaging made from recycled materials or recyclable materials. Those all actually exist and are available.
Most of the clients I deal with simply prefer that their products are made from biosourced, renewable, sustainable feedstocks and packaged in recycled or recyclable materials. That is their ethos, it is no more complicated than that. They are quite sophisticated and understand their consumers and distributors and their purchase decisions/criteria. They are not trying to trick anyone, but they very clearly understand that their consumers will not purchase products containing parabens, for instance. Their objective is: “At the end of the day you have to make the products people want to buy”
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To the contrary, it’s catering to consumers wants, needs, desires and trying to develop products that align with their values. There’s nothing silly about that at all as that is the core basis for developing succesful products. Consumers are not nearly so ignorant as you might like to believe, but that is your prerogative.
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PhilGeis said:Right - virtue signaling is the story - nothing more and the ego more important than anything. The product may be garbage but it fits values? Nothing more than BS for renewable/sustainable, containers are not recycled. Now it’s organic - agree natural is BS?
All that is the consumer’s call - let’s not pretend they have any real substance.
You are entitled to your opinion. I formulate products using renewable/sustainably sourced and organic ingredients, day-in-day out, most 4 and 5 star rated by consumers. Many of my clients use packaging made from recycled materials. All of these are important components of the product development and the consumer purchase decision. They do indeed have real substance and, yes, it’s the consumer’s call and this is what they want, this is what they buy and they are happy with it … to the tune of $50 billion annually.
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That is simply how consumers make purchase decisions unless they are deciding strictly on price. There is some very sophisticated research into understanding the psychology of the consumer purchase decision. The products have to perform acceptably for the consumer to repurchase, no doubt about that. So, it’s a combination of acceptable performance and value alignment and price. A smart company or formulator will factor all of this into creating a product … it’s understanding your customer.
Put two shampoos side-by-side. The consumer will not really be able to tell a significant difference between Shampoo A and Shampoo B as it regards performance assuming both are well-formulated and similarly priced. Unless price is their main purchase criteria, they will purchase the Shampoo that most closely aligns with their value set. They will even pay a premium for the product that aligns with their value set.
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The consumer purchase decision is much more complicated than just buying a bottle of shampoo, for instance. Most often the decision is based on the subconscious concept of buying the “idea” of the product … the product contains ingredients that they are comfortable with and is aligned with their values … they see the product as an extension of themselves and their value set. I buy Brand X because it uses organic ingredients, ingredients from renewable, sustainable feedstocks, uses recyclable containers and I believe in all those things … those factors are just as important to the purchase decision as to what is in the bottle and how well it performs.
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No, of course they will not understand the chemistry behind it, nor the industrial manufacturing. What they do understand is that benzoate is used as a food preservative, is safe to eat and safe on their skin and that products need to be preserved. And, some are more comfortable with benzoate than parabens and some won’t purchase any product that contains parabens. That’s their prerogative … their body, their money, their choice.
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The glucoside emulsifiers are generally rather difficult to thicken under any circumstances. Add GMCY to a glucoside and you most often end up with soup, not a cream. It’s just not a good combination. I personally never use glucoside emulsifiers and GMCY, in combination, or separately, precisely for that reason.
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Those are almost exclusively the type of client I work with. I find them easier to work with because they are better informed and I align with their values. They may not get everything right, but that’s why they come to you and me … for our expertise. Natural is an evolving work in progress and they understand that.
Perhaps you could try this approach: Make a suggestion, advise them of the benefits and improvement in performance based on your suggestion and have them research it. Make a sample with and w/o your suggestion and have them test it. Generally, they will go with your recommendation unless there are external factors in the market that prohibit it, such as their target distribution channels not allowing that particular ingredient.