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@Mel55 I’d reduce the BTMS (6% could weight down hair since it’s very substantive and has long chain…go for something around 2-3%). Add some non ionic emulsifier (non-ionic are better than cationic emulsifiers, like ceteareth-20…try it between 0.2-0.5%, depending on the thickness you want for your product). Panthenol is a bit too high, and it’d probably go away through rinsing, so you can also reduce it. You could also use cetearyl alcohol instead of cetyl alcohol, to get more thickness (again, depending on the amount you want for your conditioner).  

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@Aanchal Formaldehyde is no longer used in cosmetics as a preservative and you only have ingredients that release formaldehyde as a by-product (like some preservatives).

The thing is that the amounts of formaldehyde being released are very small, so small that they can only be detected with lab equipment and specific reagents and techniques.  

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@filiz I believe your betaine is still too low (keep in mind that it’s usually 30% active)…bring it close to 4%, and you might also have to increase the NaCl, but do that after you checked if the betaine increased worked. Also, pH should preferably be over 6, both for better interaction between betaine and SLES and to prevent turbidity (betaine behaves as a cationic at low pH). 

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@Abdullah I believe there should be no problem with that preservative system. As a side note, check for the efficacy to see if there might be lack of activity against some specific microbial organism, and that the pH is adecuate for it to function properly.

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@mhart123 I’ve seen emulsions where Menthol is added in the oil phase, so it’s always nice to try. Maybe you could add it as the last ingredient of the oil phase, so it doesn’t stay “hot” for too long. 

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@chemicalmatt you’re absolutely right, and I remember some papers pointing out that Aloe vera and some emollients might actually reduce the antimicrobial potency of alcohols…there’s even an FDA warning, I believe. 

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@1501 Maybe that level of sodium cocoamphoacetate might not be enough to keep some of your “oils” soluble. Can you try increasing it, replacing it by Laureth-7 or 9, or adding a solubilizer?

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@zacchaeus In your formula, I don’t see anything to solubilize your Allantoin. Glycerin might help you incorporate it into the mixture, but to keep it solubilized, you might need something. You can try with PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil, some polysorbate, or something of the kind. 

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@Abdullah As a general rule, yes…but it depends on many things like the lenght of the alkyl tail (it it’s too long, hydrophobicity will push the molecule “down”, making it interact more with the tail), size of the polar group (that could also alter packing of the micelles), pH (which can actually be detrimental if pH is too low, forcing the amphoteric to behave as a cationic). 

A good ratio for a mixture of SLES/CAPB would be 3:1 or 4:1. But be careful especially if you’re using salt in your system, because it can turn to gel very easily depending on the amounts of surfactants you’re using.

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@Abdullah That would actually depend on your system. But as a starting point, I remember the best interaction (synergy) of SLES/CAPB is around 3:1, and of CAPB/DEA around 2:1. I actually found a brochure for Amidet N (which is very similar to Cocamide DEA) where the best foaming effect is achieved at SLES/CAPB/DEA 3:1:0.5 (https://www.kaochemicals-eu.com/sites/default/files/dz/amidetr_n__in-cosmetics12.pdf). 

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amitvedakar said:

Thank you @Perry , @ngarayeva001 .

I got sample blend of  amodimethicone and Cetrimonium chloride and Trideceth-12. going to try.

@@amitvedakar be careful when adding amodimethicone/cetrimonium chloride to a formula that has LESS since depending on the dose, cetrimonium chloride could interact with LESS forming a precipitate. You can insteade DC 8500 which is a polyether amodimethicone which is designed for anionic clear surfactant systems.

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@Abdullah Cocamide MEA and MIPA have very low risk of nitrosamine formation compared to DEA. If you’re worried about it’s possible formation, avoid preservatives as Bronopol or Bronidox which under certain conditions can act as Nitrosating agents that convert free diethanolamines (present in DEA derivatives) into nitrosamines. Formaldehyde can also catalyze the reaction. You can use some substances in your formula to also prevent is formation such as Ascorbic acid (other organic acids are weaker at preventing nitrosamine formation). This last technique is used in bakery and it’s recommended by COLIPA. So, generally speaking, you need all the “wrong” ingredients so it happens, and that’s why Cocamide DEA is still approved in cosmetics, as long as there are no nitrosating agents.

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@nelson You can definitely use Linear alkyl benzene sulfonate instead of making it for your own. That is only if your formulation budget covers it. 

If on the other hand, you choose to make the process yourself (mixing soda with labsa), you will want to have a high pH for your dishwash (around 8-9). This will not only ensures you converted all the labsa (or at least most of it) to labs, but also prevents pH shifting back to an acid pH over time due to an equilibrium. The oil stripping from your hand is normal, since you have more detergent as a product of the neutralization process.

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@Abdullah Don’t get me wrong, LESS is also able to irritate the skin (I used solutions of LESS in the lab to denature some proteins in the past). What you need to do is reduce its charge density, and you do that by mixing it for instance with CAPB. As I mentioned before, the best way to get a mild system is to mix some surfactants that interact with each other (like LESS and CAPB), and at lower doses of each than if you were to use only one or two of them. 

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@Abdullah CAPB and Cocamide DEA have different interfacial propertirs. CAPB interacts more with anionic surfactants through it polar (head) group, forming mixed micelles which increase detergency and foam, and makes the system more mild. Cocamide DEA interacts more through its non polar (tail) group with both LESS and CAPB, making foam more stable/thick and giving more clarity through hydrogen bonding with water. 

That’s why you usually see a combination of the three in very rich-foam products (LESS-CAPB-Cocamide DEA). 

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@Tyss If you want to replace titanium dioxide as whitening agent, you could maybe try some starch (like Tapioca) or modified starch (Akzo Nobel has many modified starches), which will also aid in firmness.  

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mhart123 maybe you can try adding the Propylene glycol into the water phase, and the Methy salicylate and Menthol in the oil phase? Not sure how heating’s gonna affect Methyl salycilate and Menthol’s performance, but that much Propylene glycol added during cooling phase can indeed reduce emulsion’s viscosity.

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@Pharma Thanks again for the discussion and the clarification…I don’t know hoy I missed that sp3 carbon to start with, and the attractive inductive effect of the CO next to the NH2.  

I always appretiate a good chemical analysis 

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This is a guess, but Cocamidopropyl betaine has few contaminants, like DMAPA and aminoamine. Both are suspected sensitizers (especially amidoamine). Decyl glucoside as well is not as mild as coco-glucoside.

What you did in formula b is better in terms of mixing few surfactants in low doses rather than using only one or two.    

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Hi @Pharma, thanks for your comment! I’m curious, almost all nitrogens in the structure of allantoin are in a plane, and their free electrons (which are in p orbitals) can participate in a resonance, so yeah, they are less likely to react…but the pending NH2 has a free pair of electrons in an hybrid sp3 orbital, which even though is not as good as a sp2 to interact, is still a good nucleophile, mostly when the pH is not so low. Wouldn’t it be possible that it could react with carbonyl groups in carboxylic acids? 

Again, thank you for your reply, and for the opportunity to debate a bit

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1501 said:

ketchito said:

Hi Alan. Both Sodium citrate and Bicarbonate are salts of strong bases, which means that in solution, they will form Sodium hydroxide.

So, what might be happening is that your Salicylic acid that is not very water soluble (that’s why the recrystallization), will react with the Sodium hydroxide, forming as a result of neutralization, Sodium salicylate, which is more water soluble.

You could replace both salts (Sodium citrate and bicarbonate) with a bit of Sodium hydroxide.

Hi @ketchito, I have a question. When the Salicylic acid react with Sodium hydroxide and be neutralized, does it still be effective?

Hi! It depends on the final pH of your system. You can use Sodium salicylate at the start, to incorporate it in your system, and then lower the pH a bit, to have part of the molecule as its active form (Salicylic acid). Only, don’t lower the pH too much to prevent solubility issues.

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@alan123 Hi! As @Microformulation mentioned, there are ways to solubilize Salicylic acid. One is to use some solvents (ethanol, glycols and non ionic ethoxylated fatty alcohols). Another is to neutralize it to form Sodium salicylate (either using a base like Sodium hydroxide, or basic salts like Sodium bicarbonate, citrate, phosphate, etc.). Or, you could buy Sodium salicylate instead, which is more soluble in water.

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Hi! That should work, but you need to check the amount of Bicarbonate you’d need.

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Hi! Perhaps your Eucaliptus oil is too heavy, and you need a solubilizer. You could try adding PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil or Polysorbate 20. 

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You’ll have a solution of Linear alkyl benzene sulfonate.