ketchito
Forum Replies Created
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@Cosmetic_Chemist Why are you using polysorbate 80 as your main surfactant in a liquid soap? This material is rather a emulsifier/solubilizer. You need a detergent. What is the main attribute you look for with this formula?
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@Rafacasti Antioxidants work stabilizing mostly organic UV filters, to expand its shelf life. Organic UV filters due to their nature tend to be prone to oxidation. Inorganic filters tend to be more stable, especially the coated ones. Now, antioxidant is a broad term, and there are different compounds that work in specific ways, being the most specialized, the high energy state quenchers.
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@Mandy Did you try adding allantoin directly to the emulsion, during the cool down phase?
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@Abdullah I hope I also understood correctly. Even though sodium stearoyl lactylate and sles are both anionic surfactants, sodium stearoyl lactylate has a longer carbon chain, which makes it more useful as a emulsifier, while the shorter chain lenght makes sles a good detergent. To put it in a different way, it’d very unlikely to replace sles in a shampoo by sodium stearoyl lactylate (you’ll have less foam and detergency). Each have very specific attributes, so I wouldn’t replace one by the other.
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@LaurieMoser Unfortunately, the internet is in its vast majority, full of very inaccurate and wrong information. I wouldn’t trust a site like the one you mentioned (Paleo Skincare).
I actually found the type of information regulatory organizations review to evaluate the safety of a cosmetic ingredient: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1091581811400636. You’ll find the following statement regarding sensitization:
“Coconut oil was not an allergen at 100% concentration in
12 participants in a double-blind randomized controlled pilot
study.”Chemicals derived from coconut oil might be allergenic, not because of the oil but because of by-products or remainings of some reactant (for example, CAPB is found to be allergenic due to the presence of traces of amidoamines used as reactants).
I searched in few cromatographic journals, and haven’t found the presence of SA in Coconut oil. Just as a reference, I found this in a book called “Fats and oils: Formulating and Processing for Applications”:
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Camel said:ketchito said:I’d replace coco sulfate (it’s very similar to lauryl sulfate). Try a more ethoxylated surfactant, like sodium laureth-3 sulfate (or higher).
@ketchito - Thank you for the suggestion. I purchased SCS because it was cheaper than SLS and SLES and I thought it would function similarly.
Can you explain more about why you don’t recommend it?
Both Coco sulfate and SLS are non ethoxylated anionic surfactants, and they are very good degreasers, but a bit harsher for kids. Usually, more ethoxylated surfactants are prefered in these kind of products.
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@Abdullah I believe you need to test it. I remember some papers of deposition of silicones and polar oils, using PQ-10, PQ-7 and Guar HTC, I don’t remember having seen one with glyceryl oleate.
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@Abdullah SLES is a poor emulsifier, but a good detergent (due to it’s short alkyl chain lenght and highly polar head). Plus, you have way higher amount of GMS which tends to form W/O emulsions.
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Camel said:Abdullah said:I would reduce pq10, HPMC and and sodium phytate to 0.1% each.
use EDTA instead of sodium phytate and CAPB instead of shea betaine.What is the active percentage of each surfactant?Unfortunately, the picture didn’t show up properly, but the active percentages are:
- Shea Surfactant: 35% active
- Sodium Coco-Sulfate: 95% active
- Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate: 85% active
Total Active Matter is about 10% in my formula.
I can definitely try reducing PQ-10 and sodium phytate, but I’m afraid the viscosity will drop significantly without the HPMC at 0.5%. It’s already a low-viscosity, runny gel. I will try that and see what happens.
I still have 1kg left of Shea Betaine, which is a lot for me since I make small batches for personal use. I will consider trying out CAPB after I finish it. ????
Is sodium phytate less effective than EDTA?
Thank you for your suggestions!
I’d replace coco sulfate (it’s very similar to lauryl sulfate). Try a more ethoxylated surfactant, like sodium laureth-3 sulfate (or higher).
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@Abdullah Usually oils from cleansers deposit through a mechanism called “assisted deposition”, but that can only happen in the presence of cationic polymers (except silicones, in which there are other factors that make them deposit, like a change in entrophy, or charge in the case of amodimethicones…although, cationic polymers still can aid in their deposition).
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@Abdullah If you want to make a O/W emulsion, then a medium-high ethoxylated non ionic sulfactant should be added (like ceteareth-20, for example). It would form a micellar arrangement like any other emulsifier. In the presence of a cationic surfactant, you might get a mixed micellar arrangement with non ionic and cationic surfactants in alternating positions.
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@evchem2 Small polyols and other hydrophilic small molecules are able to do this because of their difussion abilities (they are very small), and their water solubility.
Polymeric stabilizers behave differently. The ones that are more hydrophilic thend to go where there is water (interphase and other free water zones). Hydrophobically modified ones tend to have their hydrophobic moieties interacting with the oil phase, while the big soluble part of the polymer would be swelling in water. They actually tend to increase viscosity.
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I side with @ngarayeva001. By the way @ngarayeva001, I read another post you just made and trust me, even you might not consider yourself a professional, you have more knowledge and experience than many “pros” around, so cheers
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@briley57 You still have quite some Cationic guar, which similarly to HEC, will form a film after drying. When you removed HEC, the flaking might have being reduced for the same reason, so removing also the Cationig guar should do the trick. 1.6% of Cationic guar is actually a lot.
Usually, film formers for hair styling gels form more flexible films (Cationic guar might be forming a less flexible and more brittle film).
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@Annyeap Using the emulsifier to make a thick product is not the optimal aproach. I’d try either adding a fatty alcohol (to build a thicker gel phase) or a gum (carrageenan comes to my mind). Nevertheless, I didn’t try to make such product before, so I’m not completely sure it’d work…but it’s always worthy to try.
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@GeorgeBenson In my experience, there can be few differences that can impact the final result in your product, like the amount of sodium chloride (it can vary considerably, ant NaCl is present in not small quantities), or the residual amount of few starting materials that can be allergenic (dimethylaminopropylamine, amidoamine, and sodium monochloroacetate), which is not an issue if you use 1-2% of CAPB, but can be a larger risk in some sulfate free formulas that use 20% and up of CAPB.
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@Aminaaa Unfortunately, gums you’re using (xanthan and guar) don’t give enough yield value to keep your oils suspended, which inevitably will end up in coalescence of those oils. If you want to keep them, you’ll need to add a suspending agent that forms a good gel network, like carbomers do. This also applies to your clays, which will settle after a while in the absence of a good suspending agent.
Also, check the final pH of your product, and especially of your phase A (Sodium cocoyl isethionate hydrolyzes at pH lower than 6).
Leucidal has been proved not to have good antimicrobial activity (despite what the supplier says). Keep in mind that supplier’s main objective is to sell their products. Overall, your preservative system might be weak against some fungi, especially if you need to keep your pH no lower than 6 to protect our sodium cocoyl isethionate.
Cetyl alcohol (and perhaps Phytomulse) should be melted and mixed with part of your surfactants and water, before being added. This will increase stability (and performance).
As @Perry mentioned, your oils will most likely be washed away before being deposited, especially in the absence of a flocculating agent, such as Guar HPTC. Not sure if powders in phase D would have a real benefit on hair (most are not water solubleand have no wat to be deposited.
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@Chemaccounts Could you add some base (like NaOH) to increase pH up to 7 or up, to see if clarity increases?
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@Chemaccounts What is the pH of your final formula?
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Hi,
I was just reading a magazine, and I found this very interesting comment from Dr. Lochhead.
Reference: https://www.rodpub.com/email/hap/Whitepapers/eBook/2/evonik_eBook.pdf
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Just some lecture from Dr. Ricardo Diez, that might change the way you look at lamellar gel networks
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@SashaHayz If you add Cationic guar as a premix, try to acidify the premix with some Citric acid or EDTA, so the polymer swells properly (you’ll see a change in color and a high increase in viscosity). If you don’t do that, the polymer won’t be able to fully expand and interact properly with your surfactants once in your formula.
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@cahealy2 If your formula works 99% of the time, and in all your lab tests, nothing comes out, chances are something in the manufacturer’s vessel might be transferred to your product. I’ve seen this few times, even with a constant cleaning after batches. Is the vessel you use a dedicated one? or they use it to manufacture other products as well?
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@Abdullah What’s the final pH of your product? It might be due to a pH drift. Betaine usually interacts with SLES to form higher micellar structures. The interaction between the two is better when CAPB behaves as a cationic (pH close or below 5). When you are at a higher pH, the interaction is different, and thicker products can show a reduction in viscosity. When you mix SA with NaOH, you have a basic salt, and that one increases your solution pH. Try reducing the pH of the product you already made to see if viscosity increases.
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@Nicky Did you check the stability of your formula? Since you mention white flakes, it might be the fatty alcohol coming out of the emulsion when in contact with water. Any reason why you use so much fats (oils, butters, etc.) in a cream for hair? That might be pushing your emulsion to the edge, not to mention the aesthetic impact on hair.