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leifh said:

ketchito said:

@leifh Starches in solid bars mainly act as binder, giving the bar a better structure. As a side effec, some starches (modified) can interact with surfactants resulting in milder systems and helping stabilize the foam as well.

So one would need a modified starch to have any benifit? Corn starch or arrowroot would not give these benifits.

@leifth It depends on what you want. If you just need a binder to have a more solid bar, then non modified starches can work. As @”DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ” suggested, Maltodextrin is a better alternative for the purpose. If you want the foam stabilization and mildness they provide (although SCI is already a mild surfactant), you better use a modified starch (like Structure XL).

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@Fekher It depends on your formula. Usually, solvents need high doses to work, and I’m not sure it’s completely safe to use at high doses (it could be too degreasing though). If you use it in low doses and in a surfactant system, you might as well not use it.

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@Fekher If used according to regulations, Cocamide DEA is dafe for use. The problem with that ingredient is both the presence of secondary amines and the presence of a nitrosating agent in your formula (lile Bronopol). But, if you choose a Cocamide DEA that has lees than 5% of its content as secondary amines (with which most suppliers comply now) and don’t use nitrosating agents, you’ll be fine. You could also lower the pH of your product with an organic acid for example, to neutralize any secondary amine present. Ascorbic acid is very good at preventing nitrosation.

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@Squinny Your system looks great! Both Polysorbate 85 and Polysorbate 20 are liquid emulsifiers, which work well in these type of systems. 

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Fekher said:

@ketchito actually the combination cetearaly alcohol with cetrimonium chloride can work as emulsifier and can lead to stable emulsion.
@AyaKhatib I don’t think that it is allowed the level of 3% cetrimonium chloride for leave in then I just see only cetearaly alcohol as texture agent. 

@Fekher In the way the method was described, it seemed like CTC was added in the coold down phase (perhaps I got it wrong), and there it would’t emulsify much since solid phases might habe started to form already, that’s why I suggested to add CTC in the water phase.

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@leifh Starches in solid bars mainly act as binder, giving the bar a better structure. As a side effec, some starches (modified) can interact with surfactants resulting in milder systems and helping stabilize the foam as well.

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@doxtera You could try with Tinogerd TT.

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@DeedeeUkulele Because it’s not its nature to stay in that system. If you want to have an emulsifier, try with one that it’s in a liquid form (like Tween 20).

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Pharma said:

Paprik said:

I have never understood this.  So Stearic acid needs some base to be able to be emulsifier (saponification I reckon). But wouldn’t it need higher pH to be able to maintain its properties? Meaning, if you would take the pH back down, it should “separate”, shouldn’t it? 
Could you please explain it to me good man?

LoL! Spot on!

What can happen is: Convert some stearic acid into sodium stearate aka soap which allows you to emulsify your product quite easily. Drop pH and convert most soap back to stearic acid. Stearic acid (and other stuff) settles and thereby hardens the oil phase. Voilà, you have created something like an unstable stable non-emulsion-but-suspension emulsion . The remaining small amount of negatively charged soap on the interphase might be just enough to keep the oil droplets (I should rather say ‘fat’ cause they’re solid) electrostatically rejecting each other.

It’s pretty much how traditional cold cream has been made (though that one was w/o).

@Pharma, I couldn’t have explained it better if I tried ????. Another way I see it is that most of the stearic acid resides in the oil phase of the emulsion, being able to interact only through hydrogen bonds with the polar head of the emulsifier, but only if you have one. Now, when neutralized, you have a stearate, whose anionic part moves the molecule closer to the emulsion interfase, strenghten the electric layer and making the lipid part of the molecule align in a way that forms a more ordered and stable structure.

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@AyaKhatib There’s no emulsifier neither in Phase A nor B. You might want to add Cetrimonium chloride to your water phase. Also, propylene glycol is too high for a leave-in (it can be irritaring). With that formula, you shouldn’t get a thick emulsion. Did you check the stability? It might be the case that you get a waxy mixture not completely emulsified that would eventualy separate.

What type of Amodimethicone are you using? If it’s an emulsion similar to the DC 949, then you just need to add it below 40°C with high mixing, to get a fluid emulsion.

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@DeedeeUkulele What type of product did you want to get? In the absence of water, you won’t get an emulsion. Rather, you’ll get a mixture of ingredients that will finally act according to their individual properties when applied to a surface. 

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@Fekher No worries. The heating was just to see if there was an issue with the kraft point. Did you try a sample without PEG-40 HCO?

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@Fekher You also need to add some base (sodium hydroxide for instance) to neutralize the Stearic acid, so it can work as an emulsifier.

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@Sara21 PQ-7 is easier to work with since it comes as a high viscous liquid easy to disperse in water. Nevertheless, for sensitive skin you should worry more about your surfactant system, that’s the one that matters more. Check out some formulas from the market, to see what they are using in terms of surfactants.

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Paprik said:

Sarcosinates can thicken with presence of salt, but it’s not as easy as it is with sulfates or Taurates. You might still need some gum to thicken the system. 

I agree with @Paprik. Sarcosinates are hard to thicken. If you could add some olefin sulfonate, then you could use both the thickening from your betaine and from added salt. Taurates could also work.

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@Shubh123 If you want ro reduce hardness, you could try lowering your candelilla wax and increase one of your liquid oils a bit.

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@Fekher That happened to me once, with a formula with both a glucoside and PEG-40 HCO. I don’t have a clear explanation of why, but if you heat a bit and the product turna clear, it might be due to the kraft point of your system. Try one sample removing PEG-40 HCO to see how it goes.

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Fekher said:

  I made no sulfate shampoo every thing was, good except viscosity the formulation contains:
Coco glucoside
CAPB
Carbomer
TEA
PQ7
Water
 So what you suggest as better ingredient to increase the viscosity of my combination?
 @Perry @Abdullah @ngarayeva001 @Pharma @Bill_Toge @chemicalmatt

@Fekher That system would thicken if you add DEA cocamide due to a good interaction with CAPB (perhaps MEA cocamide would also work). If you want some salt response, you need to add an anionic surfactant (you need some anionic charge to boost micellar entanglement when adding salt). Alternatively, you could add Crothix liquid or similar which are designed to thicken these type of systems.

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Anna_Maria said:

 @ketchito for the mixing im using a mxer and add oil slowly, keep the mix at 70 degrees for 10 mins high speed then cool down at room temperature at low speed. After cooling i homogenize for 5 mins then add cooling phase

@Anna_Maria You usually use a homogenizer (if available) during the emulsion process (higher shear rate, lower particle size, better stability, higher viscosity, compared to a mixer). 

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AVisotsky said:

Thanks, guys!

At the very tail-end, there are also the following ingredients. First half seems like claims material and chlorides are stabilizers/chelators. Correct?

HYDROLYZED WHEAT PROTEIN ,
ETHYLHEXYLGLYCERIN ,
PHOSPHORIC ACID ,
CENTELLA ASIATICA EXTRACT ,
CHAMOMILLA RECUTITA (MATRICARIA) FLOWER ,
CITRUS AURANTIUM DULCIS (ORANGE) FRUIT E ,
HYDROXYPROPYL CYCLODEXTRIN ,
SODIUM BENZOATE ,
POTASSIUM SORBATE ,
PENTYLENE GLYCOL ,
CALCIUM CHLORIDE ,
CUPRIC CHLORIDE ,FERRIC CHLORIDE ,MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE ,MANGANESE CHLORIDE ,ZINC CHLORIDE

@AVisotsky I believe those chlorides are mirerals source (they might be claiming with Copoer, Iron, etc).

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Abdullah said:

Paprik said:

https://www.stevenabbott.co.uk/practical-surfactants/cloud-krafft.php

Would this help a bit?

Yes. That was really good.

One more question: 
Does this Krafft point matter when we are making the cleansing product or when we are using it? 

I mean should the temperature be above Krafft point of surfactants during making a shampoo and mixing surfactants to obtain micelles or during washing the hair with that shampoo? 

@Abdullah You have to be above the kraft point of your surfactants to both prevent turbidity and have good detergency (if you’re above the Kraft poing, your micelles core won’t be liquid enough to solubilize anything). Now, in practice, most common detergents have a low Kraft point which means  at room temperature you’ll always be above. Addition of salt and amphoterics also help lowering the Kraft temperature of anionics.

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@Anna_Maria cationic surfactants (CTC) and anionic surfactants (SLES) generally react with each other at most concentrations, forming a precipitate that doesn’t work neither as a detergent nor as a conditioning agent. There are specific ratios (high excess of anionic compared to cationic), structures (amidoamines don’t react so readily with anionics) and addition of co-surfactants (amphoterics for instance) that prevent precipitation and even show a synergistic effect when combined. But that would take a lot of trial and error without the required knowledge. You could search for some literature about this topic before, or simply avoid adding cationic surfactants in shampoos.

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@Anna_Maria You need to be more specific. Do you add the oil phase slowly? Are you using a turbine mixer or an homogenizer? At which speed and for how long? Are you able to hold the temperature (70°C) during the whole emulsification process? Do you switch mixers and speeds during cooling down? Do you cool down with room temperature water or cold water? All of those things adfect your final viscosity.

Now, besides the manufacturing, do you use a structural (polymeric) agent to thicken your water phase?

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@Silvia I understand you’re not using Ascorbic acid in your serum, and rather, Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (MAP). MAP is actually more estable than Ascosbic acid, and that’s why it’s chosen as an alternative. Why don’t you try one sample without ferulic acid, just to see how it goes? Also, do you use fragrance in your formula? That might also be the cause of the odor you’re sensing.

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@Anna_Maria If you need to add 7% of fatty alcohols to thicken your emulsion, maybe there’s something you need to fix in your formula or manufacturing method (both affect greatly the final viscosity).