Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating General Which is best alternative to increase viscosity for such product?

  • Which is best alternative to increase viscosity for such product?

    Posted by fekher on September 12, 2022 at 5:37 pm

      I made no sulfate shampoo every thing was, good except viscosity the formulation contains:
    Coco glucoside
    CAPB
    Carbomer
    TEA
    PQ7
    Water
     So what you suggest as better ingredient to increase the viscosity of my combination?
     @Perry @Abdullah @ngarayeva001 @Pharma @Bill_Toge @chemicalmatt

    abdullah replied 1 year, 5 months ago 7 Members · 37 Replies
  • 37 Replies
  • RDchemist15

    Member
    September 12, 2022 at 6:15 pm

    If even at that level of surfactants the carbomer is effective, why not just increase the level of carbomer then? If it isn’t effective then I would question its inclusion and switch to one that is compatible like Acrylates Copolymer.

  • fekher

    Member
    September 12, 2022 at 6:23 pm

    @RDchemist15 actually I know that almost Carbomer are electrolyte sensitive, just I want to see what it gives then I added slat to see if it will work for adding viscosity but unfortunately I did not (I have some success with system Carbomer,TEA, CAPB, N70  with adding slat it increase viscosity)
      I have as reflex xanthan gum, and cellulose so thanks for the input. 

  • oldperry

    Member
    September 12, 2022 at 8:31 pm

    I don’t think salt will help thicken that system. Perhaps a cellulouse like Hydroxypropyl Methylcelluose would help.

  • fekher

    Member
    September 12, 2022 at 9:02 pm

    Thanks @Perry

  • paprik

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 12:07 am

    Yeah, even if you would build some viscosity with carbomer (which I doubt coz you’re using CAPB), once you add salt, it will all turn water thin. 

    You don’t need to use sulfates as your primary surfactant. There are milder surfactants on the market and there is possibility they will thicken with salt. 
    E.g. Taurides, Isethionates (although they are a bit more expensive if compared with sulfates). [Sarcosinates also, but they are trickier to thicken]

    Or use HPMC as Perry suggested. 

  • abdullah

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 1:18 am

    How much glucoside is there? 
    Maybe replacing it with lauryl glucoside will help with some viscosity.

    In my opinion the best option is to use xanthan gum+ guar gum. The viscosity will be more than using them alone.

  • paprik

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 1:51 am

    I believe lauryl glucoside is even harder to thicken? 

    But yeah, better grade of Xanthan Gum would be great. . The standard (200 mesh I believe) is just disgusting :D stringy and snotty …

  • fekher

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 4:55 am

    @Paprik actually for economical reason and also accessibility i’am trying to keep my ingredients as much as possible , for the moment may I can interduce (sodium cocoamphoacetate, Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate), appriciate your input. 
    @Abdullah the level of use of coco glucoside is 6%.(what ratio you recommend for xanthan and guar gums) 

     I see in humble and me that carrageenan is more recommended then xanthan gum for cleanser gel. 

  • abdullah

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 6:19 am

    Paprik said:

    I believe lauryl glucoside is even harder to thicken? 

    But yeah, better grade of Xanthan Gum would be great. . The standard (200 mesh I believe) is just disgusting :D stringy and snotty …

    caprylyl capryl glucoside is very hard to thicken.
    Decyl is hard.
    Coco doesn’t effect viscosity much.
    Lauryl increases the viscosity. 

  • abdullah

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 6:40 am

    That much glucoside may not be compatible with HPMC. You may test it. 

    I saw the maximum viscosity with 20% xanthan gum and 80% guar gum. You can test it.

    I don’t have experience with carrageenan.

  • abdullah

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 6:42 am

    This shampoo would be very drying and not cleaning properly. 

    Have you used it for some time continually?

  • abdullah

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 7:45 am

  • abdullah

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 7:49 am

    On its own, viscosity of decyl glucoside is like glycerin and viscosity of lauryl glucoside is like shea butter. 

  • ketchito

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 11:33 am

    Fekher said:

      I made no sulfate shampoo every thing was, good except viscosity the formulation contains:
    Coco glucoside
    CAPB
    Carbomer
    TEA
    PQ7
    Water
     So what you suggest as better ingredient to increase the viscosity of my combination?
     @Perry @Abdullah @ngarayeva001 @Pharma @Bill_Toge @chemicalmatt

    @Fekher That system would thicken if you add DEA cocamide due to a good interaction with CAPB (perhaps MEA cocamide would also work). If you want some salt response, you need to add an anionic surfactant (you need some anionic charge to boost micellar entanglement when adding salt). Alternatively, you could add Crothix liquid or similar which are designed to thicken these type of systems.

  • fekher

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 8:58 pm

    @Abdullah actually i’am developing it (shampoo without sulfate) so no I did not use continually and why you predict That it will be not cleaning properly and very drying?
    @ketchito thanks for the input DEA  I want shampoo free from sulfate and I have in hand Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, so may adding it with salt help for viscosity? 

  • paprik

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 9:39 pm

    Sarcosinates can thicken with presence of salt, but it’s not as easy as it is with sulfates or Taurates. You might still need some gum to thicken the system. 

  • abdullah

    Member
    September 14, 2022 at 1:04 am

    Because when i wanted to make sulfate free shampoo, i also did  start with CAPB and APG. So have some experience in it. 

  • fekher

    Member
    September 14, 2022 at 3:13 am

    @Abdullah soo clear then what tension actif did you see not drying for free sulfate shampoo?
    @Paprik thanks a lot 

  • abdullah

    Member
    September 14, 2022 at 5:47 am

    SCI  or iselux or sulfosuccinate would be my suggestions. What is cost you less. 

  • ketchito

    Member
    September 14, 2022 at 11:31 am

    Paprik said:

    Sarcosinates can thicken with presence of salt, but it’s not as easy as it is with sulfates or Taurates. You might still need some gum to thicken the system. 

    I agree with @Paprik. Sarcosinates are hard to thicken. If you could add some olefin sulfonate, then you could use both the thickening from your betaine and from added salt. Taurates could also work.

  • DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ

    Member
    September 14, 2022 at 3:03 pm

    hydroxyethylcellulase ie natrasol 250 HHR

  • paprik

    Member
    September 14, 2022 at 7:00 pm

    HEC is terrible in surfactant systems. Never had a success with it - always separated. Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose would suit better.

  • oldperry

    Member
    September 14, 2022 at 7:25 pm

    Yeah, we used HPMC in our shampoo until we removed it in a cost savings measure.  HEC was in our conditioner formula. (VO5)

  • fekher

    Member
    September 14, 2022 at 8:01 pm

    @Abdullah I found a lot of commercial shampoo a Johnson, Souplesse wich have main ingrédient CAPB then glucoside may be you got your result because the level of use of ingredients
    @ketchito I tried your suggestion it is just perfect good transperancy, acceptable viscosity… So it is really very precious input thanks a lot. 
     Thanks @Perry @Paprik  @”DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ”   for your comments. 

  • paprik

    Member
    September 14, 2022 at 8:19 pm

    Perry said:

    Yeah, we used HPMC in our shampoo until we removed it in a cost savings measure.  HEC was in our conditioner formula. (VO5)

    What have you replaced it with? If you don’t mind telling us? :)

    Also, how did you process it? Have you thicken it prior to adding surfactants or at the end? 

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