ketchito
Forum Replies Created
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@Abdullah If I’m reading correctly, what it shows is that each surfactant alone is only able to remove very few stains, while mixtures are better: the binary mixture SLES-APG removes more stains than SLES-LABSA…but there are some soils that are better removed by combining the 3 surfactants. Now, it’s a suppliers chart, so always be careful with those.
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@MurtazaHakim You can. The inflation you see is probably the hydrogen peroxide decomposing (the more you dilute it, the more chances it’ll decompose, especially under heat or in contact with copper and iron ions that might be present in your solution). To prevent that, you need low pH (below 5), the use of a chelant (HEDP is commonly used) and an antioxidant (like tBHQ).
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@Cosmetic76 For an o/w emulsion like yours, it’s best to add the oil to the water phase, since internal forces will help you get a very fine droplet size, which favors the stability of your emulsion. In the process you describe, the supplier is leaving quite some water in the phase C to help cool down the batch faster, but you need to add it in small amounts not to cause phase inversion. This part is critical, and you need to be very careful if you plan to do the industrial scale-up, especially for the cooling rate.
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@Sabina Are you reducing pH because you’re using an organic acid as preservative? I believe the system you have works best at a pH closer to 6.
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@Abdullah Did you reduce the pH of your solution? Tetrasodium EDTA in water has a pH closer to 11. At a pH of 5.1, you have a different species which is less soluble in water. You could increase pH to prevent precipitation.
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@zetein Wouldn’t it be possible that the mixture of Potassium Cocoyl Glycinate (and) Potassium Cocoate is just Amilite GCK-12H from Ajinomoto, which is an aqueous solution? As Phil mentioned, I believe Glycerin was used at that level to reduce water activity and help with preservation (impairing foam, of course).
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From Active Concepts (https://activeconceptsllc.com/our-company/), I only found this ingredient similar to what you described (not in their website, since they don’t seem to be making it anymore): AC Keratin Hydrolysate Silox (https://www.knowde.com/stores/active-concepts-llc/products/ac-keratin-hydrolysate-silox). On that website, the INCI for that ingredient is Cocoyl Hydrolyzed Keratin which might have an aqueous solvent, causing the issue you’re experiencing.
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@Robert You just need to check Dow’s and Momentive’s silicone catalogs, and check the emulsified ones to see what systems they use.
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Just as an addition to @Pharma‘s point, you can find some literature about the HLD-NAC model here: https://www.stevenabbott.co.uk/practical-surfactants/the-book.php. It’s a quick and easy to follow reference.
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@toketsu Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) is a weaker base than Sodium hydroxide, so that is one reason. Also, Sodium hydroxide is cheaper (although in some countries you need to ask for a permit and declare your annual consumption, since it’s also used to make Breaking bad kind of drugs). You mentioned the CO2 release and that carries an aereation issue (especially in emulsions).
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@SunilHiwarkat1965 That is quite some fatty alcohol in your premix. It might actually disrupt packing of the structure, that usually requires way more surfactant than structuring agent. Try addimg more AOS to your premix, and perhaps some betaine (if adding more anionic is not enough).
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@SunilHiwarkat1965 Let me understand correctly. You’re completely replacing SLES by AOS in one of your formulas, and you’re not getting same benefits as the formula with SLES, correct? Is the active anionic level the same between those formulas? If that’s the case, maybe your premix requires a higher level of surfactant, or even the addition of some CAPB.
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@SunilHiwarkat1965 AOS doesn’t reach a gel phase same as SLES does, and that’s a requirement for a LGN. If you’re using CAPB, maybe you can try increasing it, or adding some salt to force a phase transition.
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@Riyas You could use a polymeric opacifier like Opulyn 301 (very small quantities required, and no need for suspension).
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@kellymila If you need to control de hardness of your formula, just play around either with the fatty alcohol or the btms.
The loss of conditioning over time might be due to uneven mixing. Perhaps when the product is cooling down, part of the oils migrate to the top (especially the cyclomethicone you add at the end), and don’t evenly mix throught the whole product. I’d keep on mixing till the mixture starts setting, and try to use ingredients that I don’t need to add during the cool down (except for the fragrance and preservatives).
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@JonahRay I’d try with polymeric emulsifiers (there are many on the market, like Sepigel 305 or Pemulen TR-2).
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@Fekher Do you have a way to keep the temperature of your room set at the same value al the time? Do you have a way to measure and record it? Small changes can actually impact transparency in some systems.
It’d also be nice to share the specs or commercial name of your amino acid keratin.
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@SunilHiwarkat1965 Are you trying to mimic some Pantene shampoo system? Sodium xylene sulfonate is used to correct any solubility issues, not to suspend silicone oils. For that, carbomers (or similar) are used most of the times, except by P&G who builds as lamellar gel network instead.
Silicone quaternium-18 is a very specific terpolymer, and due to its ethoxylation, has a more even deposition than non ethoxylated amodimeticones (not to mention its more favourable removal after next bath). Plus, it’s more expensive and less concentrated than a regular amodimethicone, and that’s why it’s used as a good addition rather than a main conditioning agent.
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@Bobalooey If you review patents from UL and P&G, you’ll see that what they are doing is suspending the oils, not making a emulsion. In that way, foam is not impaired. Also, the cationic polymer they use is a deposition aid for the oils, which you’re missing.
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@sahar if you see formulas from big brands, they all use the same old ingredients and strategy: mineral oil, petrolatum (occlusive), IPM, CCT (emollients), glycerin (humectant). Varying your emuisifiers/structuring agents can give you a lamellar network that if thick enough, can prevent TEWL significantly. Fancy ingredients (specialy the highly hygroscopic ones) only add cost to your formula.
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@akrep Have you tried with Candelilla or Carnauba waxes?
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Riyas said:ketchito said:@Riyas Are the numbers you wrote based on total actives (eg. 7% of pure SLES or 7% of a 70% SLES)? If it’s for pure surfactants, then you can add an Amine oxide as foam booster (like Lauramine oxide). If not, then you need to increase the level of your surfactants (except for the Cocamide DEA, which is a bit high, you can use max 2%).
Yes..I’m using 7% total or pure SLES.
Can I use Lauryl Glucoside or Decyl Glucoside?
And you’re saying CDEA level is high, I’m using a less than 1% NaCl for thickness. If I’m decreasing DEA then I will have to add more salt..Wouldn’t that be a problem..?@Riyas Adding a Glucoside (especially Decyl glucoside) could impact your viscosity. If you reduce your Cocamide DEA and increase your CAPB, then you won’t need to increase NaCl, but you’ll need to find the righ combination.
Lastly, as I mentioned before, if you want more foam, add an Amine oxide (like Lauramine Oxide).
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@Riyas Are the numbers you wrote based on total actives (eg. 7% of pure SLES or 7% of a 70% SLES)? If it’s for pure surfactants, then you can add an Amine oxide as foam booster (like Lauramine oxide). If not, then you need to increase the level of your surfactants (except for the Cocamide DEA, which is a bit high, you can use max 2%).
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@zetein A lamellar network is a specific type of micellar arrangement. You have many arrangements in between lamellar and sphetical, some of which also give a viscosity increase (adding polymers increase viscosity even further by entanglement). I’m not saying you won’t have a lamellar gel network when you make a viscous emulsion, but unless you have an x-ray driffractometer, you can’t say for sure which type of arrangement you have in your emulsion.
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@Robert Keep in mind that CAPB is Sulfonate’s best friend, so they have a synergy to build viscosity, you just need to find the right ratio. With regards to PQ-7 and Guar HPTC, there are many studies showing Guar HPTC outperforming PQ-7, even having higher coacervation potency (but for that, you’d need to have an anionic surfactant).