Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating General Amodimethicone or Silicone quaternium 18; which is better for damaged hair ?

  • Amodimethicone or Silicone quaternium 18; which is better for damaged hair ?

    Posted by SunilHiwarkat1965 on December 28, 2022 at 10:30 am

    I am an old reader but a very new member of this forum. I am thankful to Perry sir for this membership. I also take this opportunity to express my gratitude to all honourable members of this forum. As a formulator the forum discussions were very much useful to me.
       Now that I was working on a conditioning shampoo( opaque)project. I have tried  1)Dimethicon 350 cst,            2)Silicone quaternium18(and) Trideceth-6(and) Deceth-7(and) Cocoamidopropyl betain             &             3)Amodimethicone (and)Trideceth-12(and)cetrimonium chloride, (and)Ceterath-25   ofcourse Polyquarternium 10 @ 0.3% was always  included in every Formulation. The pH was 5.38- 5.56.
      My questions are:-
    1) Both amodimethicone & silicone quaternium 18 are charged polymers; then why amodimethicone is more preferred & referred for treated hairs ?
    It is always said that amodimethicone binds more selectively but I have never referred such a statement for silicone quaternium.  Why ? What is the fundamental difference in mechanism ?

    2) I have successfully ( at least for now) suspended Dimethicon in shampoo without Sodium xylene sulfonate. If at all I have to use Sodium xylene sulfonate what is procedure :- shall I mix with Dimethicon & add at start/ middle/ end of the batch.  Or  add Dimethicon as I have done & add Sodium xylene sulfonate in the end. And how much Sodium xylene sulfonate is needed for 1% Dimethicon to suspend properly ?
    Thanks in advance. 

    Benyamin replied 1 year ago 4 Members · 15 Replies
  • 15 Replies
  • ketchito

    Member
    December 28, 2022 at 11:44 am

    @SunilHiwarkat1965 Are you trying to mimic some Pantene shampoo system? Sodium xylene sulfonate is used to correct any solubility issues, not to suspend silicone oils. For that, carbomers (or similar) are used most of the times, except by P&G who builds as lamellar gel network instead. 

    Silicone quaternium-18 is a very specific terpolymer, and due to its ethoxylation, has a more even deposition than non ethoxylated amodimeticones (not to mention its more favourable removal after next bath). Plus, it’s more expensive and less concentrated than a regular amodimethicone, and that’s why it’s used as a good addition rather than a main conditioning agent.

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    Member
    December 28, 2022 at 12:08 pm

    Thank you ketchio. This was immensely helpful. I have made a shampoo with lamellar gel network but that was SLES as primary surfactant. It had a very nice hand feel. But wonder I couldn’t get the same results when I switched to 38% AOS as primary surfactant. Can you have some light on this ?

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 28, 2022 at 1:09 pm

    @SunilHiwarkat1965 AOS doesn’t reach a gel phase same as SLES does, and that’s a requirement for a LGN. If you’re using CAPB, maybe you can try increasing it, or adding some salt to force a phase transition.

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    Member
    December 28, 2022 at 1:49 pm

    ketchito said:

    @SunilHiwarkat1965 AOS doesn’t reach a gel phase same as SLES does, and that’s a requirement for a LGN. If you’re using CAPB, maybe you can try increasing it, or adding some salt to force a phase transition.

    ketchito said:

    @SunilHiwarkat1965 AOS doesn’t reach a gel phase same as SLES does, and that’s a requirement for a LGN. If you’re using CAPB, maybe you can try increasing it, or adding some salt to force a phase transition.

    Yes. I do use CAPB @ 10.50% as well as CMEA @ 1.58%. I shall give a try to it.

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    Member
    December 28, 2022 at 1:59 pm

    I was pinpointing that the LGN network created separately with SLES, water & ceto.  This mixture was then added around 3-4% to SLES based shampoo; provides good thickning, foam stabilization as well as wonderful sensory to hand rub out.
    This is not the out come with AOS. However it seems that addition of cetearyl alcohol is useful to keep Dimethicon suspended. Pl. correct me if I am wrong. 

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 29, 2022 at 4:15 am

    @SunilHiwarkat1965 Let me understand correctly. You’re completely replacing SLES by AOS in one of your formulas, and you’re not getting same benefits as the formula with SLES, correct? Is the active anionic level the same between those formulas? If that’s the case, maybe your premix requires a higher level of surfactant, or even the addition of some CAPB. 

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    Member
    December 29, 2022 at 7:07 am

    I am sorry ,I would have shared more details. It is here now :-
    Prototype 1)
    SLES—12% active 
    CAPB—3% active
    CMEA— 1% active 
    #CSA+SLES+Water blend— 2.5%
    ( #water 77%+CSA 12%+28% active SLES 11%)
    RESULT:- No additional thickner, no salt, very good  acceptable viscosity. 

    Prototype 2)
    AOS— 12.5% active 
    CAPB— 3% active 
    CMEA— 1% active
    # CSA+ AOS+Water blend— 4%
    (# Water 77%+CSA 12%+ 38% active AOS 11%)
    RESUT:- Couldn’t get the viscosity. I have to add PEG 150 DS to get the acceptable viscosity. 
    The active anoinic level is almost same. In fact I have used more blend in 2nd prototype. 
    Instead as you said,it seems that I have to modify my premix blend. Will addition of 1% active CAPB in premix do the job ?
    OR   shall I increase the active AOS or Cetearyl alcohol? 
    Thanks once again. 

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 29, 2022 at 11:27 am

    @SunilHiwarkat1965 That is quite some fatty alcohol in your premix. It might actually disrupt packing of the structure, that usually requires way more surfactant than structuring agent. Try addimg more AOS to your premix, and perhaps some betaine (if adding more anionic is not enough).

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    Member
    December 29, 2022 at 2:36 pm

    Thank you very much. Shall try it & update. 

  • chemicalmatt

    Member
    December 30, 2022 at 2:13 pm

    This went into another direction, but I’ll answer your original query. Amodimethicone has a higher charge/mass ratio than the silicone quat, and it is capable of coacervating with that surfactant combo especially if you are using polyquternium-10 also. It is also much less expensive. My vote goes for that material.

    • Benyamin

      Member
      May 21, 2023 at 8:35 am

      @chemicalmatt Hello, I have made two hair straightening formulas, in the first formula I have used methylene glycol for smoothness, surfactants and silicones… and in the second formula, I have used glyoxylic acid and glycolic acid for smoothness and amino acids, glutamic acid.. …I have used it, I want to use a thermally activated substance such as urea or amines for more penetration.

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    Member
    December 31, 2022 at 7:00 pm

    Thank you once again. Sorry for delayed reply. Well yesterday I used Bis aminopropyl Dimethicon @ 1%( in Shampoo Formulation) which is 100 % active. I found dry conditioning  up to the mark. But wet conditioning was not as expected. 
    Now after your comment I am tempted to try 100% Amodimethicone within couple of days.  BTW, will this improve wet feel also ?

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    Member
    December 31, 2022 at 7:48 pm

    @chemicalmatt , to avoid inventory cost I am searching for a common conditioning ingredients can be used both in Shampoo as well as conditioner. I am supposed to submit three variants of each.

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    Member
    January 18, 2023 at 9:17 am

    sorry for delayed update. @ketchito, I heated CMEA,Cetearyl alcohol together & then added to shampoo batch. This seems to be worked for lab scale batch & also convenient on production scale. The batch is stable, no separation observed. Thank you so much. 

  • ketchito

    Member
    January 19, 2023 at 3:46 am

    sorry for delayed update. @ketchito, I heated CMEA,Cetearyl alcohol together & then added to shampoo batch. This seems to be worked for lab scale batch & also convenient on production scale. The batch is stable, no separation observed. Thank you so much. 

    @SunilHiwarkat1965 I’m glad it worked. Good luck!

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