Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Can we use PQ 7 as a foam booster in SLES- CAPB based liquid soap

  • Can we use PQ 7 as a foam booster in SLES- CAPB based liquid soap

    Posted by Riyas on December 19, 2022 at 4:48 am

    I’m using a liquid soap formula which includes 7% SLES, 1% SLS, 3% CAPB and 3% cdea.
    Can I use PQ 7 as foam booster? It’s cationic surfactant, can we use it around 0.2%?
    Is there any alternative?

    chemicalmatt replied 1 year, 5 months ago 5 Members · 11 Replies
  • 11 Replies
  • gordof

    Member
    December 19, 2022 at 5:32 am

    Hi, I would not use a Kationic PQ 7 in an Anionic Base that can lead to big problems and foam will not really be better maybe skin feeling can be improved but is it worth the potential Problems? 

    with 7 SLES and 1 % SLS you are already using very highly potent foaming Surfactants. if you don’t get enough maybe your base ingredients are eliminating the foam somehow. 

    if you want to make a “finer” (smaller bubbles) foam you could use a Glutamate based Surfactant like Disodium Cocoyl Glutamate and its companions.

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 19, 2022 at 11:19 am

    @Riyas Are the numbers you wrote based on total actives (eg. 7% of pure SLES or 7% of a 70% SLES)? If it’s for pure surfactants, then you can add an Amine oxide as foam booster (like Lauramine oxide). If not, then you need to increase the level of your surfactants (except for the Cocamide DEA, which is a bit high, you can use max 2%).

  • Abdullah

    Member
    December 19, 2022 at 2:36 pm

    Yes you can use pq7 as foam booster

  • Riyas

    Member
    December 20, 2022 at 4:09 am

    ketchito said:

    @Riyas Are the numbers you wrote based on total actives (eg. 7% of pure SLES or 7% of a 70% SLES)? If it’s for pure surfactants, then you can add an Amine oxide as foam booster (like Lauramine oxide). If not, then you need to increase the level of your surfactants (except for the Cocamide DEA, which is a bit high, you can use max 2%).

    Yes..I’m using 7% total or pure SLES.
    Can I use Lauryl Glucoside or Decyl Glucoside?
    And you’re saying CDEA level is high, I’m using a less than 1% NaCl for thickness. If I’m decreasing DEA then I will have to add more salt..Wouldn’t that be a problem..?

  • Riyas

    Member
    December 20, 2022 at 4:12 am

    Abdullah said:

    Yes you can use pq7 as foam booster

    Yes , I did used 0.2% Pq 7. But on the next day foam is reduced. It’s not working well.
    Can you suggest a different one.?

  • Abdullah

    Member
    December 20, 2022 at 6:58 am

    Riyas said:

    Abdullah said:

    Yes you can use pq7 as foam booster

    Yes , I did used 0.2% Pq 7. But on the next day foam is reduced. It’s not working well.
    Can you suggest a different one.?

    Pq7 has ~10% active so you need to use 2% to get 0.2% of it in Product. 

  • Riyas

    Member
    December 20, 2022 at 10:35 am

    Abdullah said:

    Riyas said:

    Abdullah said:

    Yes you can use pq7 as foam booster

    Yes , I did used 0.2% Pq 7. But on the next day foam is reduced. It’s not working well.
    Can you suggest a different one.?

    Pq7 has ~10% active so you need to use 2% to get 0.2% of it in Product. 

    Thank you for the replies.
    Can you suggest some other foam booster / method, to the above formulation?

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 20, 2022 at 11:11 am

    Riyas said:

    ketchito said:

    @Riyas Are the numbers you wrote based on total actives (eg. 7% of pure SLES or 7% of a 70% SLES)? If it’s for pure surfactants, then you can add an Amine oxide as foam booster (like Lauramine oxide). If not, then you need to increase the level of your surfactants (except for the Cocamide DEA, which is a bit high, you can use max 2%).

    Yes..I’m using 7% total or pure SLES.
    Can I use Lauryl Glucoside or Decyl Glucoside?
    And you’re saying CDEA level is high, I’m using a less than 1% NaCl for thickness. If I’m decreasing DEA then I will have to add more salt..Wouldn’t that be a problem..?

    @Riyas Adding a Glucoside (especially Decyl glucoside) could impact your viscosity. If you reduce your Cocamide DEA and increase your CAPB, then you won’t need to increase NaCl, but you’ll need to find the righ combination.

    Lastly, as I mentioned before, if you want more foam, add an Amine oxide (like Lauramine Oxide). 

  • Riyas

    Member
    December 21, 2022 at 1:14 pm

    ketchito said:

    Riyas said:

    ketchito said:

    @Riyas Are the numbers you wrote based on total actives (eg. 7% of pure SLES or 7% of a 70% SLES)? If it’s for pure surfactants, then you can add an Amine oxide as foam booster (like Lauramine oxide). If not, then you need to increase the level of your surfactants (except for the Cocamide DEA, which is a bit high, you can use max 2%).

    Yes..I’m using 7% total or pure SLES.
    Can I use Lauryl Glucoside or Decyl Glucoside?
    And you’re saying CDEA level is high, I’m using a less than 1% NaCl for thickness. If I’m decreasing DEA then I will have to add more salt..Wouldn’t that be a problem..?

    @Riyas Adding a Glucoside (especially Decyl glucoside) could impact your viscosity. If you reduce your Cocamide DEA and increase your CAPB, then you won’t need to increase NaCl, but you’ll need to find the righ combination.

    Lastly, as I mentioned before, if you want more foam, add an Amine oxide (like Lauramine Oxide). 

    Thanks for your reply.
    You’re saying that Glucoside ( I’m using either Lauryl / Decyl, maximum 1% ), will impact on viscosity. Is it decreasing or increasing ?
    I’m preparing a low cost transparent Liquid soap/hand wash. 

  • Riyas

    Member
    December 21, 2022 at 1:28 pm

    ketchito said:

    Riyas said:

    ketchito said:

    @Riyas Are the numbers you wrote based on total actives (eg. 7% of pure SLES or 7% of a 70% SLES)? If it’s for pure surfactants, then you can add an Amine oxide as foam booster (like Lauramine oxide). If not, then you need to increase the level of your surfactants (except for the Cocamide DEA, which is a bit high, you can use max 2%).

    Yes..I’m using 7% total or pure SLES.
    Can I use Lauryl Glucoside or Decyl Glucoside?
    And you’re saying CDEA level is high, I’m using a less than 1% NaCl for thickness. If I’m decreasing DEA then I will have to add more salt..Wouldn’t that be a problem..?

    @Riyas Adding a Glucoside (especially Decyl glucoside) could impact your viscosity. If you reduce your Cocamide DEA and increase your CAPB, then you won’t need to increase NaCl, but you’ll need to find the righ combination.

    Lastly, as I mentioned before, if you want more foam, add an Amine oxide (like Lauramine Oxide). 

    There is a mistake in my calculations of SLES and  SLS, I was using 28% SLES. And if I’m calculating total SLES percent- it will be 6% only,  also SLS I’m using is 0.5% only.
    Here is my 1000 ml formula:-
    SLES 28%- 220 g
    Sls - 5 g
    Capb - 30 g
    Cdea - 30 g
    Lauryl Glucoside - 5 g
    DMDH - 2 g
    Citric acid - QS
    Perfume - 0.2%
    NaCl - 0.5 - 1%

    And foaming is like lather and less..Can you plz take a look at this?

  • chemicalmatt

    Member
    December 21, 2022 at 6:42 pm

    That sheds more light on the problem. @ketchito strikes again here: increase the CAPB (30% right) dramatically to where the CAPB solids level is 50% of the anionic level (reduce SLES to keep cost down maybe?) Then, DEL the salt. Add some amine oxide to boost viscosity and foam. Amine oxides are all 30% active and not expensive either. Then, and only then, if you still want some softness to leave behind on skin, add 2.0 - 5.0% PQ-7. It’s inexpensive and as @Abdullah states very compatible in cleansers as long as you have enough amphoteric in there. Look up “coacervation” in the trade chemistry lit and you’ll learn more.

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