Strange phenomenon, any explanation?!Posted by fekher on December 27, 2022 at 5:21 pm
I made silicone serum when I added the amine acido keratin the product loose transparency so for returning to the crystal clear solution I needed 20 % of c12-15 alkyl benzoate
1 try) I made (100 grams) 80 g serum 20 g c12_15 I got crystal clear solution
2 try) I made (5000 grams) 4000g serum 1000g c12_15 I got very low transparency
3 try) I made (1000grams) 800 g serum 200g c12_15 I got low transparency
4 try) I made ( 500 g) 400 g serum 100 g c12_15 I got crystal clear solution.
Supposed if I make the same formulation with same process in the same conditions (Temperature , pressure) I get the same product with same results not?!
Why with same formulation, in same conditions with same process the product loose transparency with increasing the amount of sample? (this is the strangest thing happened with me in all my crear)
MemberDecember 27, 2022 at 6:09 pm
My guess would be it’s because of your mixing. You probably aren’t making the batch using the same conditions. The larger batches just do not mix as easily as small batches. The shear force you can generate in a 0.5kg beaker is not the same as what you can generate in a 5Kg batch.
Just my guess.
MemberDecember 27, 2022 at 6:28 pm
@Perry I don’t think soo, the mixing was manuel by the same tool.
MemberDecember 27, 2022 at 7:45 pmOne explanation could be an optical ‘illusion’.If you take an apple, it’s not transparent, but if you cut fine enough slices, they become seemingly transparent. This happens quite easily with liquids which appear to be more transparent (less cloudy, less coloured) in smaller beakers than they do in larger ones. If you judge transparency, make sure to always take the same quantity with the same path lenghts for the light to travel through.The other thing I wonder about: Why does keratin lead to an opaque serum and why did you decide to use C12-15 alkyl benzoate to remedy that? From a purely physical/chemical point of view, this doesn’t look obvious to me.
MemberDecember 27, 2022 at 8:19 pm
@Pharma it is not optical ‘illusion actually I put the product in same packaging to jude the transparency and is not the same for sure. C12_15 was suggested by @chemicalmatt for solving transperncy problem when adding perfume in silicone serum, so I made a try for my product and it did lovely job for small batch.
MemberDecember 28, 2022 at 2:01 am
I agree with Perry.
Can tell what was the temperature, mixer type and mixing time in both small and big batches?
MemberDecember 28, 2022 at 5:33 am
@Abdullah room temperature in same time by manuel mixing with same tool.
@Pharma about acid amino keratin it is another strange phenomenon for the first purchase I worked the formulation with more then 1% level without any issues however in the second purchase even with 0.2% serum loose transparency same thing about the level of perfume I needed to decrease the first level for maintaining the transparency.
MemberDecember 28, 2022 at 11:52 am
@Fekher Do you have a way to keep the temperature of your room set at the same value al the time? Do you have a way to measure and record it? Small changes can actually impact transparency in some systems.
It’d also be nice to share the specs or commercial name of your amino acid keratin.
MemberDecember 28, 2022 at 1:31 pm
You may be using the same tool & doing manual mixing but your volume is different. So you are not mixing it with the same energy. To get the same amount of mixing energy into a higher volume you will have to change your mixing (speed, paddle size, rpm, etc).
MemberDecember 28, 2022 at 2:21 pm
I faced this issue when I was working on Castor hair oil project. It had 75% of Castor oil. But I could resolve the issue by using C12,C25 Alkyl benzoate, Isopropyl Palmitate & coco Caprylate Caprate along with caprylyl Methicone & Cyclopentasiloxane.
MemberDecember 28, 2022 at 4:17 pm
Since you’re saying it’s not related to optics/path length, there’s three possible culprits made from the points here:
1. different mix energy (this sounds most obvious, you can try to calculate energy being applied in the small scale and match it in large but not sure how feasible that is for you)
2. raw material variation (not clear if you used the same lot of keratin/ other materials in all your batches so maybe this isn’t an issue. On a related note we once had an issue with a contaminated barrel from a supplier and when we pulled from the bottom with a pump vs syringed off the top made a difference- took way too long to realize there was some residual mystery material in the bottom of the barrel)
3. formula incompatibilities/ chemistry - we don’t know what exactly is in your serum so not sure how much we can help on that front. How is your keratin supplied (solution vs powder? is it functionalized?)
MemberDecember 29, 2022 at 9:50 am
@Perry so according to you finding the adequate energy of mixing will solve the problem? Actually tried mixing with different energy and that did not improve at all the transparency
@ketchito actually it was manuel mixing with very low speed so I supposed temperature is the room temperature.
my ingredients are : brb1834, brb dm 350,brb cm 50,AC KERAIN AMINO ACIDS SIL (inci:Cyclopentasiloxane - Keratin Amino Acids), perfume
@SunilHiwarkat1965 thanks for your precious share just why using all that ingredients to solve the problem, c12_15 alone was not enough or for more efficiency?
1)I eliminated the mixing reason because for the first purchase when I made 100 grams then 1 kg of product then I moved to 20 kg there was no issue in manuel mixing so if we supposed that the transparency problem was from different mix energy why I did not face that issue in the first purchase?
2)I had the same reflection about raw material variation and I think that is the real reason I verified the keratin and it is the same lot however I did not verify other ingredients and thanks for awesome share about pump and syringe
3)formula as I said contains: brb1834, brb dm 350,brb cm 50,AC KERAIN AMINO ACIDS SIL (inci:Cyclopentasiloxane - Keratin Amino Acids),perfume.
MemberDecember 29, 2022 at 10:46 am
I my case it was ready to use Castor hair oil. Leave on product… So I mixed up esters with different polarity, refractive index & viscosity. Caprylyl Methicone was all about reducing stickiness of Castor oil.
MemberDecember 29, 2022 at 1:12 pm
Not exactly. I’m making no prediction, just guessing at a potential cause of your problem. It gives you something to test but it might not be the solution.
But when you said “same formula” I incorrectly assumed you also meant “same raw materials”. An even more likely reason for the problem is variation in raw material quality.
MemberDecember 29, 2022 at 7:50 pmRegarding upscaling: Imagine you had each a sample of 100 ml and of 1’000 ml in a small and a large beaker, each as wide as high: from a rudimentary calculation base, you’d need about ten times as many turns with the same tool to get the same mixing. Using the same large beaker, once brim full and once only filled to 1/10, then you’d need the same numbers of ‘swirls’. In the first experiment, you’d need 10 times longer and hence have a 10 times higher chance to introduce small air bubbles and also get 10 times more evaporation of the D5. In the second case, process time is identical but the surface area vs. its volume in the small sample is bigger and hence, the small sample is more likely to get air bubbles trapped inside and loose ingredients due to evaporation.This is only to show you how difficult and unpredictable upscaling can be. It also tells you that turbidity might be caused by very small air bubbles and/or as a consequence of ingredients (namely D5) evaporating.Who’s the manufacturer of the amino acid? Knowing more about the structure might be helpful. I can’t find anything useful with ‘AC KERAIN AMINO ACIDS SIL ‘ or similar wordings…
MemberDecember 30, 2022 at 12:21 pm
From Active Concepts (https://activeconceptsllc.com/our-company/), I only found this ingredient similar to what you described (not in their website, since they don’t seem to be making it anymore): AC Keratin Hydrolysate Silox (https://www.knowde.com/stores/active-concepts-llc/products/ac-keratin-hydrolysate-silox). On that website, the INCI for that ingredient is Cocoyl Hydrolyzed Keratin which might have an aqueous solvent, causing the issue you’re experiencing.
MemberDecember 30, 2022 at 1:59 pm
@Fekher there is a much simpler explanation here. You are attempting to add a water-based keratin into a silicone-based anhydrous serum? No can do, my friend. Water and silicone mixture is a non-starter, you will always get haze. When you see proteins added to these frizz control serums it is added at the 0.0001% level just for label copy. As many have stated here before: there ought to be a law.
MemberDecember 30, 2022 at 5:11 pm
@chemicalmatt @ketchito actually the inci as I said:(Cyclopentasiloxane - Keratin Amino Acids) so it is not water based keratin then I worked 15 kg with level up to 2% of this keratin getting crystal clear product so if it is the cause of turbidity why reaching the 2% for first Batch I did not have any issue.
Update to all, today I verified the lot of other silicones and unfortunately they have the same lot then I made a batch of 500 grams getting not clear product moving to 100 grams batch I got crystal clear product. I’am thinking according to what I saw that it is related to report (exchange surface /volume) (Note : I mixed the 100 grams and 500 grams in same reactor)
MemberJanuary 4, 2023 at 7:06 pm
@evchem2 today I found out the secret of the reason of why using the keratin sometimes it gives crystal clear solution and sometimes it gives opaque solution. Actually for the second time opacity problem appears when I use the bottom of bottle so I supposed that the top of the bottle is Cyclopentasiloxane (according to the color, viscosity) and in the bottom it is the keratin (yellow colour different with the top colour wich is transparent) wich cause the opacity problem. So thanks for your suggestions and i’am sure now that your second suggestion is the right one.
MemberFebruary 7, 2023 at 5:26 am
Did the supplier notify you that you need to mix the product before using?
This is serious if separation happened. I am also waiting for a sample of keratin product from Active Concepts for a new project, and now I worry that the products might not be reliable.
The one I am going to use is oil soluble aminoacids derived from plants, with apricot kernel oil as a base, no silicones: “AC Vegan Keratin OS” (Prunus Armeniaca (Apricot) Kernel Oil Lens Esculenta (Lentil) Seed Extract & Hydrolyzed Cicer Seed Extract & Chenopodium Quinoa Seed Extract).
I want to blend it on a plant oils mixture for a nail conditioning product.
Hope it works, I can update you if interested.
MemberJuly 7, 2023 at 4:31 pm
Actually yes i’am interested with update, and I did not see any mention about this problem’s product and I find it really bad product because there is no waring about seperation.
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