[KateCreates]

So quick update:

It looks like coconut origin may not be the primary cause.  It seems likely from what little research there is that the sensitization occurs to a few of the chemicals that are typically made from coconuts, so the reaction may have little to do with coconut proteins per se.  I’m going to assume that there is a reason people say they react to the phenoxyethanol for now.  It seems like those getting dermatitis may experience a cross sensitization.  I may have to go back later and research the chemicals that had some medical reference more, but for now using the reported experience.

I had sent a two samples for plate counts before posting this and just got results.   The plate counts were far from immediate for various reasons.

One of the formulas I tested came back ok and the other.. not so much.  It was similar in formula to what I posted above, but worse.  The ok one isn’t out of the woods from the preliminary tests so we’ll pass over it, but the “bad” one I’ll share.

The bad formula:

78.70% Distilled Water
7.00% Oil Blend
6.00% Olivem 1000
*2.00% Xanthan Gum*
2.00% Sodium Citrate
2.00% Sodium Lactate
2.00% Leucidal Liquid
0.15% Citric Acid
0.15% Sorbic acid

I had higher levels of xanthan gum and I know for a fact I added the sorbic acid and leucidal liquid above the cool down temp that was recommended.  I just got a better thermometer and was checking my steps only to find that my process had been incorrect.  The test that came out badly…  aerobic bacteria.  The leucidal liquid, which I had probably damaged, didn’t keep aerobic bacteria down for the intervening weeks. 

I’ve made process corrections, fiddled my formulas, and have a few preservative systems to test now.  I may see if I can get a water activity test on a few alternate systems as well.  On the plus side, some of the improvements to make preservation easier also improved how moisturizing the lotion was.

 

I figured sharing the bad results could be helpful for some other newbs like me.  Basically main thing was that I should have been more careful about temperature checks and I had used way too much gum.  Once I get more tests in I will update more.

Oh, the pending further tests formula also has polyquats besides less gum.  I suspect that helped.  Especially as heat doesn’t ruin them…

[KateCreates]

Bill_Toge said:

KateCreates said:

Sigh.  I found the reason i didn’t use phenonip.  Phenoxyethanol….  Coconut derived.    Sorry for the excited positive post immediately followed by correction.  I still can incorporate the other advice though, so I can still improve the formula based on feedback.  Thanks

hang on, what? the vast majority of phenoxyethanol is synthetic and has never even been near any coconuts

I’ll read up on it more and try and find out why it was on the “avoid” list.  It was on the “allergen” list someone gave me and since some products listed as fully synthetic but derived from coconut stock were attributed reactions I was just staying away from it.  Thank you and I’ll go back and check my assumptions.

[KateCreates]

LOL.  I was worried you’d think I’m trolling but it’s the first thing I would do.  

[KateCreates]

Pour NaOH on some allantoin in water and see if you get an interesting reaction?  For science!

[KateCreates]

I definitely hear you on the challenge of it.  I have a list of ingredients I CAN use instead of can’t.  Surfactants have been a particular bear. 

I based the ingredients to avoid off of lists that people are saying they avoid.  Since that is what’s asked for I’m first attempting most conservative and seeing if I can meet quality metrics (preservative challenge, stability, etc). 

I’m pretty sure you are correct that feedstock doesn’t intrinsically mean final product contamination.  The flipside is that without full knowledge of the production process and/or a way to test for the suspected irritant I face a challenge to assess risk accurately.  I’ve read there are tests, but that’s another layer of knowledge to acquire still.  

Also, if I know my niche avoids ingredients on a list and I can skip it then it’s easier to market.  If I need the ingredient, but can say it was derived from an alternative source I’ll do that.  And if I must use an ingredient they prefer to avoid and can’t claim not derived I can try testing or educating, but I’m better at science than marketing and I suspect it would be an uphill battle.  Honestly, the only reason I think I have a shot at marketing is that I have yet to find anyone serving the niche with modern products and I do see demand.

But if the hurdle approach proves adequate there do seem to be people in the same social groupings that want “clean beauty.”  Whether a newb can make something functional with a more challenging preservative approach though?  Guess it will be a few months before I know if my systems pass basic testing.

There sure are people selling anhydrous stuff but I don’t see any aqueous surfactant products and next to nothing emulsion wise.  Even soaps are limited. 

I’ve gotten a fairly decent liquid tallow soap produced and there has been enough interest to where I plan to use it as a preliminary demand test (and to prep my batch traceability systems, website, and other stuff).  Soap is just not as good as modern detergent systems though….  But people like it for being “natural” which just proves you’re initial point that it’s what consumers demand.  

TLDR:  You’re right that marketing/demand matters.  Avoiding feedstock makes that part easier but the formulating a huge struggle.  And I need to up my chops to assess ingredients by a better metric anyway.

[KateCreates]

Both coconut and palm allergies are rare.  Palm Oil apparently has almost no proteins to react to in the first place and coconut is also pretty low in them I gather.  Most of the information on ingredients without palm has come from people worried about sustainability, though I don’t personally think picking some other crop to mass mono-culture will be more sustainable…

So far every ingredient that has resulted in allergic reactions in my sister has been a palm or coconut stock derived product.  Presumably there is some constituent that is not filtered out in every instance?  I don’t know.   A sensitization seems to have occurred when she spent 8 hours a day in an environment where palm oil was being used to fry and then the scent was intentionally wafted through the store she worked in.

I honestly don’t understand the difference between an “allergic reaction,” “sensitivity,” “cross reaction” or something else.  I just know that providing basic care items without palm or coconut derivatives reduces how sick she is.

Obviously, that wouldn’t justify attempting to actually sell any personal care items and she could keep the products in the fridge in theory. 

However, after sharing some soaps and lotions I made on a social media account I discovered there is a small group of people who react to coconut or believe they have coconut allergies.  The groups for it are on the order of hundreds, which is not a market that is really worth pursuing by any significant cosmetics company.  And the stuff these people wind up having to use for basic personal care is…  not great.  Pure soap from a specialty manufacturer is probably the best option and harder to get than one might think.  Some “natural” companies make a “shampoo” with no real surfactant and a bunch of citrus extracts.

So, it isn’t for me to say whether those people’s allergies are real or not, but there are no sufficiently modern personal care products they feel safe using.  I also am going to need to order a minimum of 25kg of the best surfactant option I found to be able to provide my sister with cleansers (besides soap which I’ve also made her but I don’t consider super nice).  And I use that at 20% of my formulation.  I have no need for upwards of 100kg of cleansers.  It’s shelf life will pass before I can use it.  So if, and only if, my products prove safe I will sell them to the people with unusual allergies.  If it pays for materials I need anyway and helps them have personal care needs met then it’s a win.

So, as a typical engineer, I took the requirements others told me they have and have attempted to meet them.  Then I found other people with related requirements (while off work for my own medical reasons) and saw an opportunity.

TLDR:  People tell me they are allergic to chemicals made from stock from palm and coconut.  I’m not a Dr, or even a chemist, to make such an assertion just an engineer.  So I tried to make them what they asked for.  But I won’t sell a product that isn’t safe so preservatives have my full attention.

[KateCreates]

Thanks Doreen,

I haven’t found a readily available paraben blend that isn’t in a propylene glycol carrier yet, but that doesn’t mean I won’t if I search a bit more.   I’m too tiny for most of the big suppliers right now but there may be someone redistributing if I keep my eyes open and search more specifically. I can search for the Schülke and see who carries it maybe.  (US based)

For now I’ve ordered small quantities of several “hurdle” based preservatives and I’m going to make 3 or 4 emulsions in tiny batches.  Then abuse them badly and send out for plate tests.  From there I can see if any fail right off the bat and maybe figure a “best” option for challenge testing.  

Also, I had a few people test my xanthan gum shampoo blend and they thought the weird jelly texture was a point of difference.  So I ordered the thickener you suggested but also a cationic guar gum and may wind up keeping the “unique” texture in the end. 

I’ll need the luck.     

[KateCreates]

Dr Catherine Pratt said:

I need to find a ‘natural’ surfactant’ that foams even a tiny bit. I have tried so far:
sarcosinate, amphoacetate, which are supposed to be better than anything else besides the sulfates. Really because if the amount of salt in the formula it is not going to foam. Any ideas?

Kalichem carries three olive based ones that seem to have a natural angle.  At my scale (teeny) the importing is the tricky part.  I tested two of them and I think the whole line foams.

The Hallstar OliveM line also had one.  https://www.hallstar.com/product/olivem-400/

[KateCreates]

I just ordered a roaster oven that lets you set the temperature fairly low for heating. 

Currently mixing with immersion blender, food processor, and food mixer but they over-aerate.

Probably gonna rig a standard attachment someone linked on mixer direct to a drill or make a box to control a used motor myself if I can’t find something more fit to purpose used.  (I’m an engineer so “rig a motor with a control system” seems reasonable but may be a bad idea).  My time might be better spent learning marketing…

[KateCreates]

Sigh.  I found the reason i didn’t use phenonip.  Phenoxyethanol….  Coconut derived.    Sorry for the excited positive post immediately followed by correction.  I still can incorporate the other advice though, so I can still improve the formula based on feedback.  Thanks

[KateCreates]

Actually, reading the spec sheet, phenonip works with surfactants too.  Win!

[KateCreates]

Thank you so much Doreen! 

I was getting all mixed up about the oils from a few swaps I’d done.  You didn’t say safflower.  >_>  I’m going to swap the Sunflower to a blend of jojoba and sunflower that I was previously using.  The reasons for reducing the number of oils used are trumped by rancidity risks.  I want to keep some sunflower for skinfeel and marketing if the smaller percentage doesn’t cause issues but we’ll see soon I suppose.

I’ll probably switch chelators and completely drop the whole sorbic acid, citric acid, and leucidal liquid blend for the phenonip.  I really thought I had checked that one and it had a coconut derivative, but I must have made an error.  Such a relief that there is a solid option.  And it’s less likely to irritate sensitive skin, as you said, which is important for people with allergies.

Phenonip will work; no allergen found.  I’ll need
more research when I get to aquaeous solutions of surfactants, but one
system working would be a solid start.  I don’t know how I missed
Phenonip.  It was on the preservative guide I looked at and I mistakenly
ruled it out.  So glad you replied.

Until I saw your last response I was leaning Benzyl-DHA but smell is important.  My allergic family is a bit finicky.  >_<

I’m putting an order together now so I can impatiently wait to test a few of the suggested mods and if all goes well send my lotion out for preservative challenge this month!  So excited!

Also, on the fragrance.  I had only just now gotten a decent laboratory scale and went from a few drops of lavender to 1 to 2% in my last experiments and you accurately predicted the results….   Way too much olfactory power…

I’ll make a note to report back on results. I would have been hesitant to revive a thread in a few weeks when I have some results had you not asked. 

[KateCreates]

My pH is about 5.  

Tocopherol is usually palm derived but there are other anti-oxidants I can use.  I actually used sunflower, not safflower, but made an error in typing my formula.  The manufacturer claimed Sunflower contained Vitamin E and I was hoping to get the oxidation protection up.  I’ll look into whether sunflower has the same issue as safflower and consider swapping.  Thank you for pointing that out.

I double checked the preservatives you mentioned.  Propylene Glycol is an issue in both Germall and Germaben, but I can’t see why I didn’t use Phenonip….  I’ll double check but it may work.. That would be amazing!

Carbomers are worth trying here.  I think they are fine and I did read Xanthan could increase ability for microbes to act.  If carbomers are less friendly then that alone would be an improvement and even better if they can keep stabilize things with a nicer skinfeel!

I am aware scorbic acid can cause a reaction.  Maybe the Benzyl-DHA is better to reduce the odds of reaction if I can’t use phenonip.  I may have to order it to test.  Hmmm

Thank you for the feedback.  I have some more experiments to do now. 

[KateCreates]

I think you are going past the recommended oil rate for that emulsifier.  From the spec sheet:
“Olivem 1000 has been tested in a percentage range from 2 to 8 % with a lipid
phase from 5% to 25% at different polarity value.” 
and 
“From 4 to 5 % OLIVEM 1000 is able to emulsify a lipid phase from 5 to 25%,
obtaining from light emulsions to consistent creams.”

Olivem 900 is W/O and looks like it might be a better fit for the application.  

[KateCreates]

erickafalves said:

Thank you @MarkBroussard and @Max.
So far i n my search, Microquality is the cheapest option. 
Regards

Second the thanks.  I got a quote from them as well after seeing this.

[KateCreates]

This is really informative.  I’ve seen medical devices manufacturing, but not cosmetics so I have been imagining a level of sterilization that is probably a bit high.

[KateCreates]

It does not need to be “natural.”  Just not palm or coconut derived. 

[KateCreates]

This site has some older methods and formulas, some even from when pharmacies formulated at the counter:
http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/subject.php

[KateCreates]

Hi, My name is Kate.  My background is mostly the engineering with a BS in physics.  I’ve always worked in regulated industry but cosmetics is new to me.

I’m interested in formulation mostly because of someone close to me developing a very bad allergy to coconut and palm derivatives.  Finding options that don’t cause her a reaction has been nigh impossible.  There has been a lot of scouring specs trying to find modern functional ingredients without those.

I’m looking at launching a small line with my coconut free formulas because their is such a lack of available solutions for people with these allergies.  It’s obviously a small group but everyone needs basic personal care. 

I’m way better at learning about the chemistry and production and regulations than the marketing, which is pretty much the opposite recommended in Perry’s article about what you need to launch a line.