[justaerin]

@PhilGeis They don’t? They smell like phenoxyethenol to me, and the products in which I have used them end up having that phenoxyethanol-floral smell. I’ve noticed it in fragrance free commercial products as well.

I’m strictly a home hobby level maker and I don’t sell what make, though I do give some of it away to family and friends. I typically use formaldehyde releasers and parabens and EDTA, but occasionally need something less heat sensitive than DMDM hydantoin or Germaben II.

[justaerin]

Some people notice it more than others. I find that it is more obvious at dilution than straight from the bottle. Phenoxyethanol is vaguely but persistantly rose-floral to me to the point that I only use Phenonip or PE 9010 in things I make for other people.

Phenylethyl alcohol smells far more rosy, but, for lack of a better description, in a clearer, lighter way.

[justaerin]

I haven’t tried the floral waters/hydrosols from EW, but I’ve used the ones sold by Lotioncrafter and MC. Generally they smell pretty nice, though I go for citrus more often than florals. None of the ones I’ve tried smell like hay, though Tulsi hydrosol reminded me of bales of Eastern Washington orchard grass. I use 5-10% hydrosol to add a very light scent in water-based stuff like serums and spray detangler. It works well to mask some slight chemical odors.

…and they have sodium cocoamphoacetate that I need on sale, so it would be irresponsible not to try the illipe butter. Thanks Graillotion.

[justaerin]

I don’t have any useful formulating advice, but the need for usable cat shampoo is real. Many cats don’t need bathing, but there are some cats who won’t or can’t groom themselves. This is usually because we’ve bred them to have flat faces, often with very fluffy coats, or the cats who have no coat at all, and sometimes cats need bathing due to age or medical conditions.

I recommend the cats playlist on The Girl With The Dogs (a professional pet groomer) YouTube channel for learning more about cat grooming and to enjoy some dry Canadian humour.

[justaerin]

DPG is used as a neutral solvent for aromachemicals, and is a common filler in fragrance formulation. Used in larger proportion it can change how a fragrance is percieved by altering the rate of evaporation in alcohol-based perfumes. As far as I know, it doesn’t mask smells.

[justaerin]

@vitalys Cetaphil Gentle Skin Cleanser formulation changed recently. In the US, anyway. The SLS version is the old one, SCI is the new one. They also got rid of the parabens.

[justaerin]

graillotion, I know nothing about the emulsifier, but that is a gorgeous bloom. Thank you for sharing your flowers with us.

[justaerin]

I recently bought the emulsifer part from Katom because I already have the MiniPro and they have the best price, and it arrived quickly in perfect condition.

I haven’t tried the emulsifier with it yet, but I agree that the MiniPro is a well-made, repairable, adjustable-speed beast. I’ve used it to make lots of 1 kilo batches since I bought it.

[justaerin]

@Graillotion It is available to stream on HBOMax, with subscription, using the website or a phone app.

I haven’t watched it because I’m pretty sure it will make me angry in much the same way trying to prove to someone that EWG is a lobbying organization by showing them EWG’s publicly available tax documents when they feel like EWG is really experts in cosmetics because they have such a helpful website that tells them what is good and bad.

[justaerin]

Graillotion said:

I like to help out on a mommy blogger forum when I can, and I heard a new one today.    “You don’t need a chelate, if you formulate with demineralized water.”

I’m surprised you hadn’t seen that before. Even better quality pro-science DIYer level instructions/guidance have claimed this for a long time, and it is still prevalent. Most of us hobby level people do this, and our stuff seems fine, so on it continues.

That rationale has never made much sense to me, because the rest of the ingredients are a potential source, but it is hard enough to convince some people to use a real preservative at all.

Chelation agents aren’t as easy to understand as preservatives, and the parameters and instructions for use are less clear and often contradictory. It is difficult if your understanding and approach are more cooking/crafting than chemistry/science. I mean, the big and popular US suppliers still use Standard American weights (and sometimes volumes only!) for their “recipes” and don’t provide percentages or even a total of how much you should end up with beyond estimates like “will fill about 6 of these 8 oz jars.” It is a culture that does not encourage scientific thinking, it promotes cookie-cutter “creativity.”

Is the supposition about demineralized/distilled water correct? No. Is it better than using tap or even bottled water and still not adding something to chelate? Yes.

[justaerin]

Graillotion said:

I would love to see a small ‘barrier to entry’ for individuals seeking to sell cosmetic products to the public.  I think (do not know) that the EU has some kind of minimal testing, and ingredient review for individuals looking to sell to the public.

As someone that interacts with the beginners… it just absolutely instills ‘shock and awe’ in me…of what they want to sell.

How many times have I heard this… “I made my first emulsion this week, it is not stable and beginning to mold, but I really like it, and want to start selling it next week.”   No exaggeration…this type of statement is very common.

The public deserves to be protected from this.

As someone existing in a similar space who sees this kind of thing frighteningly often, I can confirm that feeling and type of statement. I agree that there should be some kind of barrier to entry. Perhaps not allowing people to sell cosmetics products (other than true soap) unless they register as a business and pay a small insurance bond.

@Perry I think that the problem is probably not a dearth of regulation as much as it is consumer ignorance, the death of expertise, and lobbyists. More laws or regulations might be a good thing, such as requiring ingredients lists on household products. But the flip side is the utter absurdity that is CA Prop 65 cancer warnings.

[justaerin]

I’m glad I was wrong!

[justaerin]

Looks like separation to me.

[justaerin]

My favorite for small batch stirring is the Ateco 4.5″ straight spatula. It has a nice stainless blade and comes in both a wood (#1384) and plastic handle (ultra version #1304). No other brand I’ve tried has as good of a blade.

I also have a couple of small narrow Wilton unibody silicone spatulas.

And I recently relented and bought some short glass stirring rods, despite my general clumsiness, as they are the best tool for some materials and tasks.

[justaerin]

@Graillotion Looks like a very good price for TEC. The only other place I’ve found it is a fragrance ingredients repacker, and they charge a lot more for it.

But I did some cross-checking of prices and info for some essential oils and other things I’m familiar with against other repacker/supplier sites I trust who give more information about what they’re selling, and I don’t think they’re the oil supplier you’re looking for. Easiest one was how much they’re charging for Neossance Squalane. Ouch.

Also, they’re not as informative about and occasionally downright confusing regarding some of the essential oils I looked at. A bit fuzzy with origins, sources, and details sometimes. Maybe they’re responsive to inquiry. But they seem to be targeting small businesses and those looking to start small businesses who may not know enough to ask the right questions about origins as well as safety.

What bothers me is that they have app for both IOS and android. Why would anyone need to have that? They don’t seem big enough for it to be a good tool for interacting with their inventory. Useful as a low key way to make a little money with data collection though. Special rewards for dowloading an app for an essential oils supplier just
throws all kinds of red flags in my cynical, shrivelled heart.

They’re probably ok for what they are, but I know you’re not content with good enough. I’d keep buying TEC if they’re the best option, I’d be skeptical about the oils. And I wouldn’t download the app.

[justaerin]

ngarayeva001 said:

Guys, I really wanted to make it a post but it won’t be appropriate I guess. I found a supplier in Thailand. They sell ingredients that are impossible to find anywhere else at DIY amounts. I already ordered from them and they delivered to London for £36 (took only 6 days). They provide all documentation and the packaging is not bad (DIY suppliers are often horrible with packaging). I am not affiliated with them in any shape or form but I always struggle with finding synthetic ingredients (I know they all are synthetic, I am referring to PEGs, Silicones and other “free-from” ingredients) and I tried them, so they are reliable.

https://myskinrecipes.com/ 

I know cheesy name. They don’t have MOQ, accept Paypal and deliver quickly. They have PEG-10 Dimethicone and other W/Si emulsifiers, Esters that I couldn’t find anywhere else, Hydrocarbons and silicones that I haven’t seen anywhere else (stearyl dimethicone). They have pure amodimethicone (not an emulsion but an oil-soluble). They have Isoxehadecane and even oil soluble dyes. Enjoy!

Thank you for diving in and mentioning it! Hopefully their US shipping is quick too. I just came across the site this week when doing a search for where someone was getting laureth-4. They have a few things I have really wanted to try but haven’t found anywhere else too!

[justaerin]

From trying similar, though anhydrous but for the sugar, scrubs and chasing what sounds like a similar skin feel, you could try adding a few % each stearyl alcohol and stearic acid in place of some of the liquid oils.

But I will also say that stirring in 1% (of final product) granular SCI with the sugar took my ~50% sugar to ~50% anhydrous with emulsifying wax oil blend from kind of greasy to clean but comfortable rinse-off. Perhaps including the SCI is too much surfactant to keep the feel you’re looking for?

[justaerin]

Perry said:

@chemicalmatt - Satiny Cushion was my overnight DJ name on a smooth jazz station. 😉

This made my day 97% brighter. Thank you.

[justaerin]

I applaud and apppreciate your dedication to safe usage. However, Tisserand is not a cosmetic chemist or perfumer, and is trying to keep people from hurting themselves or others while practicing aromatherapy. They use the easiest simple and general guidelines because they are not teaching chemistry, perfumery, or functional product formulation.

For carrier oil vs shampoo or surfactant solution, the analogy works on a practical level. Different mechanisms are at work when comparing dilution in oil vs mixing into a surfactant solution, but either way the concentration is low because the essential oil integrates into the diluant in both.

The clumsy explanation that I use for explaining to friends: There is no need to mix essential oils into carrier oil when using in a shampoo or body wash because of the surfactants in the cleanser. Surfactants are a one time use oil-to-water adapter with an oil grabbing side and a water grabbing side so they make oils mix with water to varying degrees. That is what makes them cleansers. Adding a carrier oil to shampoo is counterproductive because it reduces the available surfactant oil receptors for cleansing while not adding anything useful or desirable. Essential oils are not made of fatty acids and triglycerides like carrier oils, but they are mostly oil soluble or oil miscible chemicals. The EO is solubilized (grabbed and held) by the surfactant in the shampoo just like any oil is, but when EOs are used at safe amounts there is still oil holding capacity left in the shampoo so it will still work as a cleanser.

[justaerin]

Mayday said:

justaerin said:

Unfortunately, it still has a noticable fishy smell at 0.5%. The downside of glucomannan/konjac is the smell, very like BTMS but more tenacious. Maybe since the last time I bought it processing has gotten to the point of removing the fishy smell from the konjac sold as food grade, or maybe I’m just unusually sensitive to it.

Now might be using a different supplier by now, so it isn’t a terribly fair test. Modernist Pantry might be using a clearer or less smelly grade than Now, but I haven’t tried it.

When I contacted Modernist Pantry, they said that their Xanthan and Konjac produce a transparent solution at 0.5% (though I have not verified it). I think Konjac has a tendency to be somewhat fishy, as I recall some people complaining on reddit about zero-carb shirataki noodles being fishy… but for all I know they were making noodles with the Now foods glucomannan. However, it’s possible that Modernist Pantry has a more clarified grade. I’ll try out theirs once I get the chance.

Konjac in all pre-made noodle and powder forms that I’ve encountered has had that smell, but I have only used it in versions or grades sold for food. If I was trying out konjac for cosmetics, I’d start with what I’ve already got, but I only make stuff for myself so it is low risk and saves money. It is enough more elegant in texture than xanthan gum that I keep it
around for cooking, though I obviously don’t use much of it. The smell
isn’t a problem in sauce, but it was noticable in plain water. The smell
of the noodles is strong.

The things I’ve bought from Modernist Pantry have typically been a little nicer than the same ingredients from other sellers of food-use items. Now isn’t bad, but they’re selling to supplement seekers, not molecular gastronomy enthusiasts. Cosmetic suppliers might have special cosmetic grades that don’t smell as much or are clearer, but I don’t know of any repackers that sell glucomannan.

[justaerin]

Mayday said:

Also if anybody knows where to get konjac glucomannan as someone who only has access to repackers/online, it’d be appreciated! I’ve found Now Foods Glucomannan (supplement) and Modernist Pantry Konjac Gum, but am hesitant to order them because I am doubtful they are suitable for making clear gels…

I don’t know where to get cosmetic specific glucomannan, but I’ve got an old container of the Now Glucomannan (bought 2015 with best by date of Feb 2018) so I did a quick test with 0.5 g in 100 g water. A bit of shear mixing and 25 seconds in the microwave and more mixing… and as I remembered, once the air bubbles mostly disappear it is a clear but slightly hazy gel. I might be processing it wrong and it was a very lazy test, but I think it would probably be closer to carbomer clear at lower concentration.

Unfortunately, it still has a noticable fishy smell at 0.5%. The downside of glucomannan/konjac is the smell, very like BTMS but more tenacious. Maybe since the last time I bought it processing has gotten to the point of removing the fishy smell from the konjac sold as food grade, or maybe I’m just unusually sensitive to it.

Now might be using a different supplier by now, so it isn’t a terribly fair test. Modernist Pantry might be using a clearer or less smelly grade than Now, but I haven’t tried it.

[justaerin]

There’s a new one today! These are great!

I too have appreciated chemicalmatt’s insights here over the years, so it was fun to see him in action.

Also, chemicalmatt reminds me of my college woodshop professor, who made the shop a welcoming place for learning for everyone. Calm, lots of info, and a sense of humor.

[justaerin]

Fragrance is a deeep well. I’ve just been dipping my feet in because I needed another expensive hobby or something.

Simplest, if they have one that suits you: Wholesale supplies is carrying fragrance blends that conform to the ISO standard for natural.

There are fragrance manufacturers that specialize in natural material fragrance. Palette Naturals has a citrus accord, but it isn’t really a whole fragrance.

Another option would be to go full DIY and blend a small amount of a longer lasting natural aroma chemical like valencene or Sinensal with essential oils. There are a few perfume ingredients suppliers, the equivalent of lotioncrafter or Making Cosmetics, that sell these. There are a couple of good suppliers, and also some less trustworthy ones. Send me a PM if you want my almost entirely gossip based opinion on them, as I’ve only ordered from one myself.

[justaerin]

Hello, fellow hobbyist!

This is anecdotal, but I haven’t had good luck with that emulsifier staying stable when much under pH 6, so 5 may be an overly optimistic rock-bottom. Also make sure it is under 40 C before you add anything in the cool down. It doesn’t like being rushed. I wrecked a batch with optiphen at 45 C.

I don’t know how much of a lift or effect you’ll get from 1% vanilla extract, because I’m assuming that you mean the kind for cooking. In which case I would put it in the heated water phase. Remember to check the IFRA or supplier recommended safe usage for any essential oils.

[justaerin]

@1Armand2  AOS is short for Alpha Olefin Sulfonate, which is another way to refer to Sodium Olefin Sulfonate.