[jemolian]

https://realizebeauty.wordpress.com/2014/01/26/is-jojoba-oil-really-just-like-sebum/

Probably people will associate Squalane due to squalene. Though if just one plant oil is enough, then i’d assume there’s no point in a blend like L22?

[jemolian]

I took the IPCS diploma since i wanted to see what else i have missed out from learning by myself. I have a business degree, started DIY in 2018, and took the IPCS diploma in 2020. I consider it as learning new knowledge since i like to work on some hands on stuff.

If it’s specific information that you need, i’d recommend looking at the scope and what you will learn closely and do a comparison. The certificate in advanced cosmetic science should cover the modules for the preservation & stability, you can confirm with the module number. I can send you my version of the table of contents for the preservation & stability units if you wish to find out more. You can send me a PM.

I think it really depends on the style of learning & teaching. You can look at the sample videos or live streams related to the course to see if Belinda’s style fits your needs because it can vary based on personal preference.

As the others have mentioned, you should also compare the qualifications of the person who teaches or designed the course besides from the course material. Perry does also have this own course. I’ve not taken it myself but his course does also over the 2 aspects. So if you can request for the table of content for a comparison, i think it should help to a certain extent.

[jemolian]

Both might sting perhaps because it’s a shaven area, so it’s easily sensitizing.

Whether which is worse would also depend on the pH and also if it’s a rinse off / leave on product.

[jemolian]

We said micellar waters dont do anything miraculous to the skin so how can i differentiate myself from the rest?

You need to determine this yourself. What is your micellar water suppose to do. Based on usage recommendations, do you recommend it as a leave on product or require rinse off? If it’s fine to leave on, you can work on the other ingredients including extracts. If it’s a rinse off product, you can just work on the pricing or other aspects.

Is a micellar water water or oil based since it also has oil?

Micellar water is normally water based unless you want to make it a biphase product.

So this begs the question: is it possible to have a micellar water than remove in one go? And are micellar water a first or second step in a dsouble cleansing?

Adding more surfactants to increase the performance would help to remove whatever you need to remove better.

Whether micellar is a first or second step in double cleansing depends on what other cleansers you are using. For example:

• Cleansing Balm -> Micellar Water
• Micellar Water -> Surfactant Cleanser

[jemolian]

Some ingredients may not be able to be “one pot” as they may require longer processing in the specific phase, so always check and test if they can be one pot.

[jemolian]

Perhaps you can mention what your formula is.

The factors that can include the stability includes the percentage of emulsifier vs how much oil it can emulsify, any additional rheology modifier such as gum or carbomer used for thicken and aiding stability, additional of other co-emulsifying or waxes, etc.

[jemolian]

Found a mention about Betaine for Allantoin previous when searching for Salicylic Acid.

SOLUBILITY-OF-SALICYLIC-ACID-AND-ALLANTOIN.pdf 116 KB PDF - Click to view

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[jemolian]

@chemicalmatt good to know. Is there anywhere in particular where i can read more about BG ?

[jemolian]

It works as a humectant and may be a preservative booster in extracts. They are using it probably due to cost and availability. 

[jemolian]

Betaine would be more hydrating and provide a sight soothing effect compared to Trehalose. There’s not much skin feel to Trehalose, i feel. Both are fine to use, so it depends on preference and requirements. 

[jemolian]

You don’t really need to make it that complicated. Just 68+AVC will do, lol. If you think AVC is too rich, but you still prefer a thick viscosity, switch to the carbomer if you have any on hand. 

[jemolian]

You can add slightly more butters if you really prefer more creamy. Aristoflex will give it a thicker texture compared to other polymers so you can adjust accordingly. 

[jemolian]

Regarding the active, excipient, in active, functional terms, they are used by different people and ways to categorize the ingredients in the formulations. 

I’ve created an example of an anti inflammatory serum with treatment claims for reference. You can see how it can be categorized. 

[jemolian]

“Clean” beauty is not really regulated so you can claim it to be whatever you want. You can make it part of your brand concept but don’t make it it’s main one. 

Personally it just makes me roll me eyes, we are moving towards better ingredients regulations, but i’m really not impressed with brands making “clean” beauty it’s “personality”. 

If you have to choose, choose something more meaningful like local sourcing, sustainability, upcycling, etc. 

[jemolian]

It really depends on what kind of texture you prefer your butter or cream to be. 

I’d say 2.5% - 3% of a rich emulsifier (eg, 68) with 0.8% - 1% Aristoflex will do. 

[jemolian]

I use the 202 as well since i prefer a matte finish on the skin. I do also have the others and low cost emulsifiers but it really depends on what i want to make. 

For the polymers besides from the usual Sepinov, i will also use the ones from the Ultrez series since i don’t need to wait that long for them to wet compared to the classic 900+ carbomers series.  

[jemolian]

If i didn’t recall wrongly it’s Pemulen Ez-4u

[jemolian]

So here you say that some small crafters charge a low price and then when they see they dont make enough profit they increase that price correct? So what do you suggest here? To me what they should do is to account for all the costs involved in the manufacturing of their products : ingredients, primary and seconday packaging; stickers; filling and advertising.This is the TOTAL COST. To this total cost i will add MY MARGIN to get the RETAIL/SELLING PRICE correct? so this means i dont charge low to attract i charge i ” fair price” meaning a reasonable price that covers my expenses and a margin ill add to it. 

Yes.  However, “low price” is relative to spending and how you determine your margin or brand concept to be. Some brand prefer selling at the lower price, some at a higher price, it depends on the brand position. 

So here you mean if the retailer of a brand you import sets the MSRP at 100 usd; your selling/distribution price is between 25 and 45 dollars? 

Supply / distribution price between 25 - 45. 

lets say pharmacy sells at at say 100usd so you are asking me if i sell it at 30usd to them would i still be profitable, is this what you mean?

Mainly this. It’s already very straight forward in terms of what i was mentioning. 

I dont understand here again the numbers and the concept. Ok so lets say my retail price is 5usd, what is the distribution at 35% that you are talking about? Wait distribution price is applied only in the case of B2B right? Im confused a lot now. 

I’m not sure why you are confused. Putting your products in a store is a B2B move, whether it is by consignment or selling them your products, depending on the terms & conditions, there will be a required amount of profit / commission on their end, which will be directly or indirectly cost of the product. This is also applicable for other distribution routes like you are expanding your products to other regions via distribution, unless you are planning to open a company in those region yourself. 

[jemolian]

How will this help me? 

You will know when you see if for yourself. 

Oh you mean in my survey i should ask people where they search for cosmetics; is it on google, on facebook; on Instagram etc right? 

I believe i have mentioned that before. 

[jemolian]

And how would looking at trends serve me or benefit me, i dont get it? I mean is it still part fo the brand concept to understand more brand concept and expound on what i wrote when i speak to B2C and B2B clients; is this the reasoning behind you suggesting me to look into trends? 

It’s mainly the further refine the concept. The trends I have mentioned may help with that but its up to you to determine if it does since those are marketed by other brands. 

if you have SENSITIVE SKIN we know that the right chemical exfoliator would be something like mandelic acid or a PHA.Again since i want to not make things worse for people with senstive skin; i intend to create a face scrub with mandelic acid. So i have YOU and your concerns in my mind when i develop a product

So how would you know it would work well on people with the specific skin type? A test would be required. Like what I had mentioned for the trends, the brands may send the product for a sensitivity / irritation / allergy reaction test for the results to show something as part of the marketing to the customers. A test can kind of claim the choosing the right active, if not you can just stick to essential oil free or free from some common allergen ingredients. This is up to you to what level you want to prove your concept. 

if yes it should be backed by actions not just words and the actions are  Or its not strong enough to entice people to want to be curious and try?

Normally if you are backed by reasonable proof, people will be willing to test the products out, even if they are curious about the brand / products but ultimately what keeps the customer is the product performance and the value (for money). 

Is my story enough to encourage people to say pick my cleanser over that of Laroche? 

what i understand is that there must be a cohesion between the rband concept and the products of the brand right? by cohesion i mean consistency. So can my brand concept be a diff factor and how to highlight it?

No. So you need to incorporate the ideas and actions to proof or validate your concept as mentioned above for example. Alternatively using ingredients or active suitable to maintain or improve specific skin types. This depends on the product planning and development based on your concept, skin type, product type, product performance requirements, etc. 

[jemolian]

 By the way im reading now about brand concept and i feel like it is more or less the philosophy of the brand; what does the brand stand for overall, is this correct? 

Yes that should be fine for that. You can see what the others say. 

Based on what you had mentioned, you can tag along some of the trends which you can look into: 
- the term “wellaging” instead of anti aging. 
- “you the customer”, which is where surveying and customer feedback comes in
- “skin to be safe”, this is more for marketing but you can get your product tested for allergic reactions if you have the budget. This can work against you since no product is fully allergy free but Korean companies have been doing this for their product and uses it as part of marketing. 
- “right active ingredients”, this can be quite flexible but it depends on what you mean by “right” and to what point. 

[jemolian]

So what i get is : strike a balance between your cleanser ( oil or gel or whateevr) and keeping a good margin to sustain my business.So if for example a cleanwer sells at 13 usd and mine costs _ to make and i sell at 20 BUT NO ONE buys then im at loss or if they sell but the price is low compared to competition and then i decide to move it upwards then its a mistake as you said. so the price should help my business be sustainable and yet the product is in demand and doesnt cost much to produce; that is the main idea right? 

Some small crafter do make this mistake which is why I had mention to do your costing for margin calculation. 

Let me give you a reverse example. You remember that I mention that my company imports and distributes skincare? Distribution prices can range from 25% to 45% of the recommended retail price / MSRP. 

Would your product still profitable at an average of 30% of the retail price? If your product is 10 USD, it should still be profitable at your distribution price, let’s say for example 35%, which is 3.5 USD. 

It’s best to minimise price increases due to price setting mistakes, example if you are only profitable at 5 USD, then to adjust for distribution at 35%, then your retail price will be adjusted to 14+ USD. Are customers still willing to accept at this price point? 

[jemolian]

 i have been procrastinating a lot because im scared to be frank because i still think i must get some work done before i can test

If you know that there are quite some work to be done, I’ll recommend creating any action plan and get it done with. I’m not sure about your country but in certain countries, for example the ones like mine that follows the EU regulations, the products needs to be registered with the government before selling. If you are doing sampling, you might want to look for the testers yourself instead of approaching a store since they will likely not want to take any risk in your activities. 

if you can explain what you mean when you said dont overthink the oil cleanser

If you can’t decide on what type of cleanser to make, just make a general gel cleanser that markets to all skin types. You can add whatever else ingredients as part of your story later if you want. You normally can’t go wrong with a generic cleanse type. 

Could you please accompany me in this because im trying to find out and dont see

Actually we (the people that have commented in this thread) had been going quite some suggestions already, so you don’t particularly need us or me to accompany for that long. You will just need to write up your action plans and commit to them. What we have suggested and what you have researched will add to the list of actions to be taken. Also we won’t be able to here forever since we are providing free advice and just in a general form, you should really look for your mentor or a consultant so you can discuss in specifics with a legal NDA signed for confidentiality purposes. 

Would it be a good starting point to check what the local competiton meaning indie bvrand like me are doing in terms of cleansers? 

Yes, that would also be part of competition research. 

because my add was to simply check the negative revuews on anamzon of Laroche posay and improve on that or like you said DO A SURVEY and see what people care aboiut

If you have no clue, it’s best you do all of the above. 

[jemolian]

so if i want to SELL not EDUCATE and offer a product like that is on the market i can do a gentle cleansing lotion but id i want to differentiate can i add to it mandelic acid so it would cleanse and gentley exfoliate; because this is how i understand when you ask me to differentiate? But if i put mandelic acid can people use it everyday? Can you please help as i want to be different but not sure what i should do? 

You can decide on the Sell:Educate ratio later. Normally you will still need to educate to a certain extent depending on the product since people will still not know about everything your product does, it just varies depend on how educated your demographic is about skincare and ingredients. 

If you want to make an exfoliating cleanser that is fine. This will still be up to you. Depending on the pH and percentage of the acid, the user may not use it daily since you don’t need daily exfoliation. 

The differentiating factor still depends on your brand concept, not just the products. We don’t know what that is, but it’s something you need to decide for yourself. Personally i’d recommend not to overthink the cleanser. A cleanser mainly does 1 or 2 things, cleansing and sometimes is a treatment for skin issues. Most of the time people are just want an effective cleanse and sufficiently mild. The goal is to meet those needs besides from managing the cost to maintain a sufficient margin for marketing and profit for a sustainable business. 

You might want to put more effect into your leave on products. People can purchase another cleanser for reasons such as them finding the price of the current product is not of the value they hoped for, or the performance of the product doesn’t meet your satisfaction due to various reasons. People may also chose to purchase a product from the same brand as they like the brand. 

Assuming you have your products ready, you can choose to market your leave on product to them and get them to try your cleanser. If they are fine with the value and performance, they may try choose to purchase your cleanser. This is more about giving out samples and other methods of marketing. 

If you need a differentiating example: There’s a Chinese brand that seem to have an obsession with cleansing oils. Supposedly they tested a lot of oils / esters / surfactants, and also gotten a factory to specially produce a surfactant for them for their cleaning oil for better efficacy. This would be an obvious differentiating factor. https://youtu.be/KJWaa0kf7vc?t=557 

don’t decide based on what you have read on internet or what you thought. Correct data and information, why your target don’t like to use micellar, why some don’t like cleansing oil, why some like balm and you will see what you should sell, micellar or balm or oil or both or neither. So I will know this info from the survey right? 

Yes, if you have surveyed enough people you think can determine the trend of your demographic. 

And you should be looking into makeup remover category rather than facial cleanser. why is thta? 

This is up to you. There’s no should or shouldn’t. You are the business owner, every decision should make sense for your business.

[jemolian]

I want the micellar water to be a leave on product but i read that leaving them on the skin can be problematic because surfactants will stay on the skin and this is not good.What do you think?

This is up to you. I’d prefer to rinse it off since i don’t really need to have additional surfactants and unremoved dirt on my face if i can use water to rinse it off more than what the cotton pad + micellar water can.

So if i want ti to be leave on does that mean i can add fancy ingredients to it such as hylarunocn acid and vitamic c.Also if its a leave on micellar water can it double as a toner then so pople can use it to remove makeup and to tone the skin?

This is up to you but i’d recommend just market it as a micellar water or a toner, there should only be 1 main focus, as it can be confusing for some people. You can market it with “toning” ingredients if you want if people choose to not rinse it off.

So is it possible to have a micellar water without using pads?

You should think if cleansing would be effective without the pads. Micellar water is a watery liquid, so is your hand able to handle it well enough?

If we put oil on our micellar water will it become a rinse off products? Cus i was reading now some micellar water which is actually a micellar oil and people said that they should rinse it off cus it has loil.so if it has oil does that mean we should rinse it off?

Whether it becomes a rinse off product depends on your recommendations. It depends on the function of the oil. The oil may act as a solvent for the makeup/spf or just for moisturizing purposes.

if its water based then it a second step in a double cleansing?

As mentioned, depending on previous comment, it depends on the other cleansing products if any.