[Herbnerd]

I calibrate the lab pH meter first thing in the morning before use. 

[Herbnerd]

Ryan23294 said:

Hi @Herbnerd, you’re absolutely correct. I live in the USA but would still be open to working with people overseas if cheaper. Thanks!

By the time you factor in international couriers to get your samples to NZ, you may find it is far cheaper to do this in USA. However, I have no contacts in the USA.

[Herbnerd]

Abdullah said:

@Herbnerd are you in china? 

No - New Zealand. But I do work with a number of regs in China and the rest of Asia.

[Herbnerd]

For which market?

China for example, max 1% on leave on products, but no limit on rinse off products.

[Herbnerd]

Might be useful to advise people in which country you are looking - I can suggest a couple in Australia & New Zealand. But this may not be what you are after.

[Herbnerd]

MariaGarcia said:

Thank your again, Herbnerd. I suppose they work like the mixture of baking soda and lemon juice to remove the stubborn dirt from the bottom of the skillet or the oven  ????, I feel these tablets very efective as dentifrice! My teeth are brilliant and smooth ????

Certainly you could. But then again, knowing your interest in formulation a toothpaste/tooth powder, you could just formulate your own.

[Herbnerd]

We use 90-150 micron (described by supplier as ‘coarse granular’) baking soda and have an RDA of about 100 (medium abrasive according to Indiana/ISO). Our calcium carbonate toothpastes using a 7 micron powder is around RDA of 120 - which is considered highly abrasive

Baking soda is far less abrasive to teeth. Silicon dioxide is far better as an abrasive being able to target specific RDA.

[Herbnerd]

Probably not harmful to teeth as a solid dentifrice - the bicarbonate would neutralise the tartaric and citric acids. It will effervesce nicely (basic formula for effervescent tablets and bathbombs). As long as the baking soda is in excess (not just enough to neutralise the acid) it should leave enough abrasive to clean the teeth too.

From experience, baking soda has a fairly low RDA (Relative Dentin Abrasivity, also known as Radioactive Dentin Abrasivity) and a good PCR (Pellicle cleaning Ratio) giving a fairly respectable CEI (Cleaning efficiency Index).

Speaking with other colleagues in the dental health area, the RDA is considered the least valuable of the tests, whereas many put greater weight on the PCR. 

CEI is just a calculation between RDA & PCR to give an overall value.

As a mouthwash, this is just an effervescent tablet used as a carrier for the flavours. There seems to be no surfactant, so on sitting, the oils would come out of solution.

[Herbnerd]

Tried any of the flavourhouses - Sensient, IFF, Givaudan etc? They would be your best bet. You can give them a brief of what is required and they will (hopefully) deliver you samples to assess.

[Herbnerd]

tecnico3vinia said:

Herbnerd said:

I’m currently developing products to Natrue standard. A number of compounds seem to influence preservation whilst not being on the approved preservative list under Annex 4 of the standard.

If you check out various suppliers - such as this one (and there are many more) they offer a number of other ‘multifunctionals’ that offer antimicrobials that are based on flavour compounds and other molecules. 

https://cosphatec.com/en/products/

Often you will get clues to what others are using from reading the labels.

Thank you!
I discovered these Cosphatec’s preservatives while I was doing some research days ago. I’ve found out that Alverde uses a lot of Levulinic Acid and Sodium Levulinate, which are also flavour/fragrance compounds. While I’m skeptical about these ‘multifunctional’ allegations, I really want to test them and see how (and if) they work. 

The toothpastes I am working on mostly do not have any preservatives added to them - the various compounds in the essential oils do the job effectively. We have tested this to BP/EP preservative efficacy testing/micro challenge and we have demonstrated that the formula works well and passes all testing.

A couple of formulae did fail BP/EP preservative testing (only on Aspergillus brasiliensis, all other micro passed) and these used ISO 9235 compliant flavours rather than essential oils; however, based on the results, these would USP preservative testing and definitely pass ISO testing. We did decide to use potassium sorbate in these formulae. That said, we do plan to trial other compounds to see if it is possible to remove the potassium sorbate.

I’m open to trying them. I wouldn’t say I am entirely skeptical about them - but I would need to test and prove them. These compounds may not be suitable for everything - Inolex have some compounds, but have advised against their use in oral care. Symrise have offered other products including raspberry ketone. I;ve not tried the symrise products because the raspberry ketone would definitely impact the flavour

[Herbnerd]

I’m currently developing products to Natrue standard. A number of compounds seem to influence preservation whilst not being on the approved preservative list under Annex 4 of the standard.

If you check out various suppliers - such as this one (and there are many more) they offer a number of other ‘multifunctionals’ that offer antimicrobials that are based on flavour compounds and other molecules. 

https://cosphatec.com/en/products/

Often you will get clues to what others are using from reading the labels.

[Herbnerd]

@PhilGeis Thanks for that. We seem to be getting bogged down (mostly by a micromanaging manager) who is insisting we compare BP, EP, USP, ISO/TR 19838 etc. 

I’ll see if I can get hold of a copy.

[Herbnerd]

MariaGarcia said:

Thanks a lot. As a student, all this is a valuable information, although it discourages me because I don’t have access to that kind of ingredients, neither to the appropriate tests, so it seems quite useless to experiment with toothpastes at home 

I don’t mean to discourage you, just provide you with information. If you are manufacturing for home use, do carry on if that is what you want to do.

If you want to develop for sale, there will be more work to do and providing safety trials will be part of that process.

As for testing costs - when I started at the company I am with now, there was no budget set aside for trials and no consideration for testing costs. They were shocked when I put together scale-up trial and testing costs of around $250,000 - but this was for almost two dozen products and 500 kg scale up trials for each along with RDA/PCR, stability, PET, Fluoride stability, free & total fluoride assay, fluoride uptake etc etc etc and didn’t include any re-trials because my manager insisted on running trials before we were ready.

[Herbnerd]

MariaGarcia said:

I understand. But if all this is so vague, how do you formulate a prototype toothpaste for a specific purpose? I mean, you are looking for some characteristics and you need to have an idea about what ingredients to use and in what proportion to get closer to the result you are looking for, and then do the necessary tests to check if the product is correct and/or work on the corrections. There must be some general rules… Or is it just the supplier of each material who tells you the proper dosage?

Formulation to specific purposes is far easier with dental grade silicon dioxides, such as the zeodent range from Evonik.

You can use the different grades for tooth whitening (High abrasives), to very gentle abrasion suitable for kids.

Their website (although I have found it to be faulty and they are correcting this) allows you to target a specific RDA using specific grades of silicon dioxide; however, their mixing model  on the website doesn’t allow you to mix different silicon dioxide. But if you deal with their innovation lab, they have different mixing modeling software that allows great targeted RDA.

Other abrasives, such as calcium carbonate or calcium phosphate or even sodium bicarbonate, are much less flexible in formulating to a specific PCR/RDA - and there is a fair amount of trial and error.

That said, Omya have a great range of dental grade calcium carbonates, also Specialty Minerals. Omya probably has better information sheets and grades.

[Herbnerd]

MariaGarcia said:

chemicalmatt said:

I cannot fathom how kaolin would be a better and less expensive abrasive than dicalcium phosphate, which was used traditionally in these dentrifices. Is there an issue using phosphates in E.U.? If you are to “put clay in the mouth” then try out the perlites from Imerys, a Spanish company. More abrasive than kaolin.

 There were exceptions (e.g., refined kaolin clay) that had high PCR scores and low RDA values, resulting in higher CEI values“:

CEI is just a calculation based on PCR/RDA (CEI = (RDA + PCR – 50) ÷ RDA)

- it gives and indication of cleaning efficiency. However talking with others in the industry, it seems there should be greater weight on the PCR rather than RDA - you want your teeth to be clean but not necessarily abraded away to the dentine.

[Herbnerd]

MariaGarcia said:

Thanks a lot for your answer, Herbnerd. I really apreciate it  <3 .

I asked this because, according to what I studied, the amount of abrasives (in addition to the particle size, of course) in a paste determines its level of abrasiveness, and depending on the orientation for the formulation that I had, these should be added in 15-50%, in depending on the degree of abrasiveness desired. In a solid toothpaste the proportion of abrasive is much higher, and I was looking for a way to reduce it…

I feel a bit embarrassed now because I really don’t know the particle size of these two abrasives . Here in Spain, I suppose it’s the same in other countries, it is difficult for small formulators to access different qualities or granulometries of a material. It is sometimes difficult to get such accurate information from retailers.

I made a 100g sample batch, using A.Vogel brand’s kaolin, because it is the finest and purest I have been able to access, and calcium carbonate that the pharmacy on my street supplied me (they have been making pharmaceutical products since 1719 in their back room lab). I’ve just sent them an inquiry about the particle size of their carbonate, I hope they can answer me…

In my sample I did not feel that the product was too abrasive, my teeth felt polished, and I felt a less gritty sensation than using, for example, Colgate Cavity Protection Caries (I can’t find how it is valued by the RDA), although I know that is a subjective perception, and I’s still concerned by the high amount of abrasives…

Thanks again

There are a number of different issues here. Proportion of abrasives does not necessarily mean something is more abrasive or less abrasive. I can use 25% of a certain grade of silicon dioxide and it will form a nice gel but will not clean teeth, I can use 6% of one silicon dioxide grade and get the same abrasivity as using 20% of another grade. But even within various grades of silicon dioxide, the amount you use can affect the abrasivity - the same grade could provide different RDA/PCR values depending on the quantity used.

Even something like silica - you can have grades of silica that provide a sensory (gritty) aspect to the paste - and still have a low RDA.

Abrasivity is governed by many aspects - the material you use, the particle size, the hardness of the material when compared against enamel. Even the time after eating when you brush.

Talking with raw material suppliers and even testing laboratories, the tooth samples they use to test abrasivity can also affect results - certain cow breeds (they tend to use bovine teeth for testing unless your request human teeth), the area in which they were raised and even the year they were born can skew results.

One of the tasks I have to do shortly is cost optomisation on the calcium carbonate - precipitated vs ground calcium carbonate. Even with precipitated calcium carbonate, there is no direct swap - crystal shape is also affecting not only abrasivity but also the viscosity and structure of the toothpaste (not necessarily and issue with a tooth powder). Most suppliers would not be able to tell you the aragonite to calcite ratio (in fact I have only found one supplier to states aragonite content.

Personally, I wouldn’t rely on a particular material until you have tested the finished product - especially if you intend to sell the finished product

[Herbnerd]

Are you using lakes or dyes? Lake colour by dispersion but are insoluble in water but will disperse through powders or are suspended in creams. Lakes will separate out in water. Dyes will dissolve into the water phase

[Herbnerd]

Re calcium carbonate & kaolin - do you know the particle size of these two materials since these will be your two abrasives? 
I currently use two different grades of calcium carbonate - one at 2 µm and another at 9 µm. The 2 µm is just a polishing grade, whereas the 9 µm is far more abrasive (currently out toothpastes are around the 120 RDA/90 PCR).

Clays such as kaolin may not be as fine as you think - some have quite harsh particles in them - one of our toothpaste is around 150 RDA which is classified as harmful (some whitening toothpaste are as high as 250 RDA).

Adding Xanthan gum and MCC will also help with tableting - I can’t see MCC having much effect on the abrasivity though - and it might be hard finding any data to support the abrasivity of MCC.

If you need to test your product, Indianan Dental School (Oral Health Research Institute) will be the way to go to test RDA/PCR.

[Herbnerd]

From memory, a number of essential oils will weep out from the wax base over time.  I understand from the couple of candlemakers I know this is the reason they buy perfumes specifically for candles.

[Herbnerd]

1Armand2 said:

toothpaste formula is simple!

toothpaste is simple - but fluoride stability in a calcium carbonate paste isn’t so straightforward.

[Herbnerd]

Devesh327 said:

Thank you Herbnerd. I have studied Menthyl Lactate, However, It is almost Rs.8500 per Kilo which is very expensive. I need a cheaper compound. 

Not sure what you want to pay but check https://dir.indiamart.com/impcat/menthyl-lactate.html

You might find something in your price range.

[Herbnerd]

I had to do some digging on a formula I was working on where they wanted the cooling effect of menthol without the smell.

Menthyl Lactate and a few other Menthyl compounds are available. Check out the Frescolat range from Symrise:

https://www.symselect.com/cooling_warming

[Herbnerd]

There is no difference between Ascorbic Acid and L-Ascorbic acid.

This molecule exists in two enantiomers. The L-from is Ascorbic acid; the D-form is called erythorbic acid. 

[Herbnerd]

Yep - Feel free to contact me. Just let me know what specifications you require.

[Herbnerd]

Pattsi said:

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@Pa@Pattsi Does Salmon sperm count? (well, maybe not for LOVE!)