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I agree with what’s stated by the others, sunscreen development is highly complex and expensive ,please see this video that outlines some of the complexities of sunscreen formulation<div>

https://youtu.be/aTNcbLHZusc?feature=shared

</div>

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Thank you @gordof !! Those are very good reasons to not use them , regarding the ions incompatibility Do you think then that maybe hydrophobic coated pigments would have a better compatibility as they not dissolve in water?

@Perry44 I just notice I mistakenly put this in “innovation” , is there a way to move it to “formulating”

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@Devesh327 thanks for sharing , your formula looks very interesting !!!

Would you be so kind to share the INCI of Zeemasil T - 4 and Silicone Resin GLX 2000 ?

I was unable to find them by those tradenames I guess I’m forgetting how to goggle ????

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Hi Pharma , 

May I ask what function do you need it to perform ?

Right now I can’t think of anything what all that requirements but maybe I can came up with options depending on the functionality, do you need it as a salt tolerant thickener? 

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Pharma said:

Citric acid and the base used to counter-act the low pH are electrolytes, especially when reacting with each other . Citric acid is probably not your best choice, try lactic or hydrochloric acid and try not to play yo-yo with pH.

Wow !! Thank you @Pharma

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Pharma said:

Citric acid and the base used to counter-act the low pH are electrolytes, especially when reacting with each other . Citric acid is probably not your best choice, try lactic or hydrochloric acid and try not to play yo-yo with pH.

Why lactic or hydrochloric acid are superior to citric for pH adjustment ?

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It’s possible , I’ve seen a few 

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Got it , then my recommendation is to use TEA as neutralizer , you will have traces of water as TEA usually contains small portions of it 

There are waterless neutralizers that could work but they surely will be more expensive and harder to source 

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@marimaster_3991
do you need to to be completely anhydrous or it can have traces of water ? 

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Those ingredients sound so cool , I didn’t even know about the existence of that Squalane Wax and Acai Sterile ???? , thanks for sharing 

Other ingredients that have good barrier properties are 

Lanolin
less effective than petrolatum but still great 

Niacinamide
not actually a barrier , but has been found to also reduce effectively TEWL

Mineral oil
Again less efective than petrolatum but better skin feel and easy to work with

And that’s it , sorry my recomendatios aren’t as elegant as yours

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Carbomer will do the trick indeed , I have work with it

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Pharma said:

Why do you think so?

I’m no expert in safety but I used to work in a transnational company with a very professional and serious team of Toxicologists , they had banned mineral oil in lip products , but consider safe for other applications. I like to believe they weren’t influenced by irrational fearmongering as they had fair thoughts on ingredients with bad press (sulfates , parabens , petroleum jelly) and did not hesitate to also ban or restrict “Natural” ingredients that had been found problematic

so I think I just trust that team and I found this also:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26352930/

“

Taking into account that material applied to the lips largely ends up being ingested”

“…strongly accumulated and form granulomas in human tissues”

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Agreeing with the previous answers 

Formula most likely will cause irritation

Results on pictures are unattainable cause that’s Photoshop

Just adding that mineral oil is not quite safe for lip usage

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In an emulsion the viscosity inexplicably dropped when in contact with certain plastics, what was more weird about it was that this product was a part of a line using the same base but this only happened to that particular product and the others were totally fine. Also nothing was observed during stability , the issue only happened in contact with some plastic . the culprit was a pigment , I always thought of pigments as quite inert materials , but then this happened and still thinking about the why 

The other formulation problem I’m obsessed with is having ascorbic acid in a water base formula that is stable (not discoloration) , so far the only way I know to have it stable is go anhydrous 

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VP/VA Copolymer should be added at neutral pH (after carbopol neutralization) else it would form a mass that precipitate out just as you saw , and 2% of it’s just way too low you won’t probably get a lot of fixation at that level , also glycerin can have a negative impact on the performance of VP/VA Copolymer why are you adding it in the formula ? , peg-40 HCO can also have a negative effect try to use as low as possible just to solubilized fragrance , regarding claim ingredient I would suggest to use a water soluble extract of coconut oil(yes they exist) or you would have a lot of problems with clarity and stability

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JonahRay said:

Okay, after tons of trial and error and knockouts the issue still persists. I reached out to Wacker for information on their silica dimethyl silylate (HDK H15) - though I use the one from Making Cosmetics. They told me that silica dimethyl silylate is hydrophobic so it can disperse in lipids but its actually the hydrophobicity that allows it to thicken because the resistance to water builds viscosity and therefore it is more appropriate for aqueous systems… They recommended hydrophilic fumed silica (HDK H20). Does anyone know of any suppliers or similar materials on the market for this use? Or honestly am I just crazy… its advertised as an oil gelling agent on Making Cosmetics…

Edit: It looks like possibly Cab-o-sil is an option? Does anyone know where I can purchase this?

Both types of fumed silica work as oil gelling agents , but hydrophilic is more efficient (altought peg-8 dimethicone and glycerin might interfere with the gelling) , just one thing to consider is that hidrophobic one gives a more elegant feel to the product

in my experience with fumed silica when used alone it failed most of the time to avoid syneresis even when the liquid to gel was an individual oil not a mixture of oils

so I would suggest to incorporate another gelling agent , I see you have tribehenin but not sure is in a sufficient amount to be helping (also not sure how good gelling of this blend is)

There are a lot of options but first that come to mind are:

• silicone crosspolymer as @Graillotion suggested
• Disteardimonium Hectorite (but it might substantially change texture and appearence)
• I know you don’t want waxes but I think bleached beeswax would work wonders on this formula
  

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I think also that polyethylene is easier to rinse-off than traditional waxes , as these waxes will tend more to form a film

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Carbomers are a family of ingredients , so there are grades of carbomer tolerant to electrolytes and surfactants , even the ones that are not design to be tolerant can withstand some electrolytes and surfactats , it all depends on the concentrations

fatty acids or alcohols can add viscosity by themselves but won’t provide any stabilizing effect to cabomers , in fact fatty acids/alcohols would have a negative effect on texture when combined with carbopols , but again it all depend on concentration and grade of carbopol used

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@luiscuevasii sorry to resuscitate this but it’s very interesting how you managed to do a stable solid stick with such high amount of water in it ,specially considering your limitations on raw ingredients  , I would like to know how it ended up

were you able to improve the slip? (6 years late but maybe adding ball-bearing powders would help) 

did you had the chance to evaluate stability was it stable at different temperatures and conditions?

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good another option

Thanks @Cafe33

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@Cafe33 Yeah BAC as a claim ingredient sounds great!!

I don’t know if the COFEPRIS offices are already open , but yeah the situation with coronavirus is ridiculous , here all bars and restaurants are open but a lot of goverment offices and public sport places are closed with lots of security  :# , it just does’t make any sense

I haven’t deal directly with regulation affairs since my area of expertise is formulation but I do know that the only thing that Mexican regulation says about claims in cosmetic products is:

“La información que se presente al consumidor, debe ser veraz y comprobable”

So pretty ambigous and permissive , there are not guidelines for claims nor nothing(exept for SPF claims) like regulation in other countries

I don’t know either if there are guideliness for antibacterial claim in the drug regulation , but I’ve seen cosmetics using antibacterial claims using the thinking I mentioned before , recently I saw some big and known brands using “antibacterial” with just an “*” and a tiny disclaimer that says “all soaps are antibacterials” , so they were not using any antibacterial active

I think “Contact Time” is simply “Tiempo de contacto” at least is how i’ve seen in the documentation I’ve checked like http://www.salud.gob.mx/unidades/cdi/documentos/capitulo9.html

Regarding the pH , BAC is active in the range from 4 to 10 https://www.americanpharmaceuticalreview.com/Featured-Articles/38885-Antimicrobial-Preservatives-Part-Two-Choosing-a-Preservative/

 

so a very good and wide range , it is important however to keep it in solution for it to be active as letsalcido said , it precipitates in your final formula ?

the thing that I don’t know is if the pH affect the ability of BAC to cling to the skin , so maybe @letsalcido could shed some light on this topic

the other thing is that it can be inactivated also by nonionic surfactants https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6942038/ , it can still work if you have a high concentration to compensate so just for you to be cautious about it

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a little late in the discussion…

Take a look at this the for BAC https://www.who.int/patientsafety/information_centre/Last_April_versionHH_Guidelines%5B3%5D.pdf?ua=1

I mostly agree with the WHO opinion , I’ve seen studies showing that BAC is only acceptable as sanitizing when combined with benzethonium chloride at high levels,it could sensitize skin and there’s a concern of enviromental accumulation and cross-resistance to antibiotics

Besides all surfactant base formulations with foaming capabilities and rinse-off are considered “Antibacterial” cause the actions of rubing, foaming and rinsing the product are effective to remove most harmful microbes , and unless you have a very stric and specific regulation to fulfill, with this thinking you can ambiguously claim antibacterial , I don’t belive the addition of BAC or cetrimonium chloride will add an additional antibacterial benefit to the final user considering also the short contact time and that most of the active will be rinsed-off

So maybe you could use Cetrimonium Chloride as a conditioning agent and only a little amout of BAC if it helps with the marketing story of your product

For the marketing story maybe you could also check Chlorhexidine or chloroxylenol for improved compatibility with anionic surfactants ( Since I haven’t work with these ingredients I don’t know their safety profile , aesthetics or regulatory status)

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natiyo123 said:

also , every once in a while you can find good stuff in mercado libre 

hehehehe been there , I’m also guilty of buying at mercado libre once in a while

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ZleyHoldings said:

You can try contacting us, but we are a cosmetic ingredient manufacturer based in China and can offer a small number of samples for testing.

Thanks for offering :smiley: , and I agree with Belassi I’ve had problems in the past with Fedex , UPS and specially DHL , one time they charge me more for storing the merchandise for wait to custom revision than for the actual taxes and custom clearence , it was ridiculous

Best to ship via post so the goods end being handled here in Mexico by Sepomex

And thanks again ZleyHoldings !! I will take a look at yout portafolio

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Cafe33 said:

Conjunto Lar is messy as Belassi says, very bad customer service. To be honest, even with all the problems you have to deal with, Cosmotienda has the best customer service. They will fix issues if needed. Also, double check multiple times that they have your proper address. They added a 0 to my address more than once and it was not delivered.

Chemico sells in 1kg presentations. They are reasonable. They also offer technical sheets very quickly. 

I have an Ashland product coming in 22-23kg bags - Natrosol 250. I am using it to thicken some cleaning products. If that’s the product you are looking for let me know.  

ohh Conjunto Lar sounds like a nightmare

I think I will manage with Chemico and Cosmotienda

Thank you for the offer , right now I do have Natrosol 250 but if I need more in the future I will sent you a message , Thanks!!!