[Gunther]

Besides PEG-7 GC I will try some tiny amounts of menthol and eucalyptol that seem to reduce viscosity.
I wasn’t able to find any studies on it, only anecdotal reports:

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/1067/why-the-viscosity-of-sulfate-free-shampoo-dropped-after-adding-the-menthol-crystal

[Gunther]

While only a marketing study can tell what people really want, I’d give it a try.

I believe they’d like a mild (non irritating) product with creamy foam.
High CAPB levels come to mind
This product sheet shows that CAPB sharply lowers irritancy until it becomes 80-90% pf the total surfactant mix.
https://glenncorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/DS_TEGO_Betain_F_50_e.pdf

For a home/office bound bottle, I believe they’d like a foamer bottle. But it needs to be water-thin.
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/4338/any-ideas-for-making-liquid-soap-really-water-thin-so-its-suitable-for-foamer-bottles

You can also sell them in portable, small flip-top or push-top bottles (not foaming).

Pearled + coffee brown looks great to me.

I’m curious about the coffee shampoo tech issues:

1 Did you use distilled water to brew its coffee?
2 Did coffee reduce the salt amount needed to thicken it?
3 Does shampoo smell like coffee? If so, then I guess no other fragrances are needed or wanted, do they?
4 Any incompatibilities from coffee?
5 Did coffee lower shampoo pH by itself?

[Gunther]

Update:

I just realized I have Coco Betaine and not Cocamidopropyl Betaine

They are not the same thing, and the former seems to increase viscosity more than the latter.

https://realizebeauty.wordpress.com/2015/10/18/yes-coco-betaine-and-cocamidopropyl-betaine-are-different-chemicals/

I took of Cocamide DEA which was making it thicker and sticky

So far, the following formula seems to remain water-thin:
80% deionized water
0.1% EDTA Na-4
0.4% Sodium Benzoate (might add some extra Benzyl alcohol later, for preservative redundancy)
1% SLS powder
4.29% Texapon N70 (3% active SLES)
10% Dehyton K (3% active CAPB)

SLS:SLES  1:4 ratio for better foaming. 
(although foam ain’t that bubbly or “tight” as I’d wish, will try adding HPMC later)

SLS+SLES Is just 4% to remain water-thin.
Might try upping it to 4.5, 5% to improve foam.

Active CAPB is a whoping 42% of total surfactants
it was on purpose, to reduce irritation
https://glenncorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/DS_TEGO_Betain_F_50_e.pdf

I might try adding some PEG-7 Glyceryl cocoate
as it seems to lower viscosity a bit
http://glenncorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/DS_TEGOSOFT_LSE_65_K_Soft_e.pdf
Too bad the chart has a logarithmic scale.

[Gunther]

@Olivae even if you find active ingredients that actually self tan skin,
they are experimental = unproven, both for efficacy and for side effects.

The chemicals may prove hard to find and expensive, too.
Some of them are so new that they don’t even have proper chemical names, like
HG 9-91-01 SIK inhibitor
https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(17)30684-8

Right now only Forskolin seems safe enough to be worth trying. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3857937/

Some bodybuilders even inject tanning enhancers like Melanotan-2, but I don’t think any of that will be safe for an OTC product.

[Gunther]

Does Kaolin really does anything useful and actually noticeable to hair?
How about lowering it to claims ingredient levels?
And grind it to semi-micronize it with a ball mill or something, before adding it to the formula.

Sorry, perhaps I’m missing something but I just don’t see how Kaolin can do something for hair
other than feeling gritty and powdery (dandruff-like at high levels) when the rest of the formula dries out.

[Gunther]

Extra-hold hair mortar coming?
These funny posts depict how little we men know and (pretend to) care about beauty products.

A sales pitch like
‘this product holds hairstyle without making thinning hair more noticeable’
Will get a reply like: ‘Oh, I don’t care about baldness, but I’ll buy it as a gift for my brother’ when it’s actually for him. [add cash register bell sound for the sale here.

Now seriously
@phillipc421 for learning you can:
1 Surf swiftcraftmonkey blog
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/

2 Look for free sample formulas in the major chemical manufacturers websites
like Stepan, Pilot Chemical, Clariant, Croda, Kao.

3 Search and read old posts in chemistscorner.

[Gunther]

@iditech not meant to discourage you
but I think that you’d better start with cleansing products and creams meant for people with medical conditions, yet still OTC.

Then you can get in the pharmaceutical business, probably starting with medicated (prescription) creams, since you’d already have OTC creams at this point.

You already have medical sales reps to offer them to doctors.

[Gunther]

1 http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/
Her blog can take you from being a total newbie to an intermediate level formulator.

2 Browse the big chemical manufacturers websites (i.e. Stepan, Clariant, Kao, Croda) and print out their sample recipes
then search the products used and write down the chemical names (INCI).

3 Read, read and read chemistscorner.com
Use both the internal search function and Google the words you want (you can use ” ” for an exact search) add   site:chemistscorner.com   to restrict the search to this website.

4 Call/browse your local chemical suppliers to see what products they have and which ones they don’t, 
as you don’t want to mail order everything.  Also you don’t want to miss out great ingredients just because your local shops don’t have it in stock.

4 Finally begin posting here.

By the way, I can tell you that the market for men’s hair clays and pomades seems to be slowly fading, with no end in sight, as most of them tend to clump the hair together, making thinning hair even more noticeable.
Spray-on hold products seems to be the future (in a manly pump bottle)

[Gunther]

I’ve felt a sticky afterfeel for finished SLES products (diluted)
Did you feel any residual stickiness from ALES?

[Gunther]

Thanks @DAS I will try with lower C-DEA
but likely it’s mostly an anionic-cationic compatibility problem.

As for Erythritol,
while it may make shapoo a bit more sticky (although not as much as glycerin for the same weight) it conditions hair a bit, and more importantly it seems to temporarily thicken thin hair.

While claim substantiation studies must be taken with a grain of salt,
you can read about erythritol at jungbunzlauer website
https://www.jungbunzlauer.com/fileadmin/content/_PDF/PRINT_PROJECTS/Article_facts/JBL_AR_ERYLITE_Erythritol-adding_functionality_to_hair_shampoo_2016-009.pdf

Some John Frieda shampoos have it:
https://www.johnfrieda.com/en-FI/products/frizz-ease/forever-smooth-shampoo/
https://www.johnfrieda.com/en-FI/products/frizz-ease/miraculous-recovery-shampoo/
https://search.johnfrieda.com/en-FI/search.x?q=erythritol&ie=utf8&d=all
I personally like JFrieda products. They work fine, not too expensive. And they don’t make wild claims about puff-ingredients, or XYZ-free scaremongering.
Simple and straightforward formulas you can attempt to replicate. Most still use SLS/SLES.

[Gunther]

A bit off-topic, but what are good steel grades for salt-ladden formulations (not shampoos)?

[Gunther]

Did glycol distearate precipitate at the bottom?
The only thing I can think of is that carbomer helps suspend the EGDS particles from falling down.

You shouldn’t need carbomer to properly pearlize
so you’d better switch to a pre-made all-in-one pearlizer (like Euperlan) or try Ethylene Glycol MONOstearate, which is reportedly easier to use.

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/1277/glycol-distearete-issue-in-surfactant-system

[Gunther]

Update:
I just made an experiment with a similar formula

Phase A
22% deionized water
0.1% EDTA Na-4
0.4% preservative
0.25% menthol
5% eryhthritol
10% Texapon N70 (8.4% active SLES)
5% CAPB solution (1.5% active CAPB)

Phase B
18% water
2% Texapon N70 (1.4% active SLES)
4.33% CAPB solution (1.3% active CAPB)
1.2% Cocamide DEA
5% Euperlan PK 771 Benz

Phase C
5% water
2% Cetrimonium Chloride
2% Polyquaternium 7%

Somehow phase A+B felt thicker than expected, despite no cationic being added yet.
While adding phase C didn’t seem to immediately thicken it or make it slimy
it did when filling up to 100% (q.s.), with about 10% water.

I’ll try again with a variation of my previous working recipe, in that order. 
It had just 3.5% active SLES + 1.5% active SLS for a low-poo shampoo. As expected it was low foaming (but not that low cleaning power)
But later on I’ll try it with 7-8% active SLES to see how it works

[Gunther]

I believe you’re missing several ingredients for proper formulations.

For foundations and lipsticks you’ll need a film-former, like polyisobutene
Silicones, fatty acids long-chain fatty alkanes, esters, emulsifiers if you use water, and so on.

[Gunther]

Does acidic pH prevents ALES from staining stainless steel?

[Gunther]

In this study they made Silicone Quaternium-20 compatible with SLES

Silicone Anionic / Silicone Cationic Complex Silicone Quaternium 20

http://www.scientificspectator.com/documents/personal%20care%20spectator/Article%20Silicone%20Complex.pdf

Just mixing SLES and Silicone Quaternium-20 yields an insoluble separation:

Table 6. Shows that the silicone quaternary itself is not soluble in

sodium laureth sulfate, while the complex is soluble.

Note The SELS/Silicone complex is clear, while the incompatible

SELS/ Quat in two layers.

They used to previous phases, before adding cationics
one with SLES+CAPB
the second one with SLES+Cocamide DEA+CAPB+EGDS

I wonder if having a separate phase for Cocamide DEA with CAPB and SLES prevents it from reacting with cationics (even though C-DEA is generally regarded as nonionic).
I believe TEA is only meant to neutralize the Carbopol (acrylates copolymer).

A simple formula, certainly worth trying,
I will, with Polyquaterniums and Cetrimoniums instead of SiliconeQ-20.

[Gunther]

While I don’t know about UK regulatory specifics

Most regulators worldwide don’t test every single batch from every registered manufacturer.
At best they’ll do some random testing.
And IF they do any random testing at all, meds have the highest priority, cosmetics the lowest.
It’s up to the manufacturer to do all internal testing.

When registering new products
most regulators worldwide will only do microbiological testing
and not Chromatography testing (which is expensive and time-consuming but it could spot undeclared ingredients)
so there’s plenty of room for unscrupulous manufacturers to add undeclared ingredients, and get away with it.

[Gunther]

Knock out experiments
pointed out that Cocamide DEA is sticky, even on its own
PEG-7 Glyceryl cocoate is a bit sticky too.

[Gunther]

Update:

Now Cocamide DEA thickened it again, slime returned.
I’ll have to stick to my old recipe (discovered by accident), where CTAC is added last, perhaps only before pearlizer.

@DAS that’s a great idea. I’ll try it.

[Gunther]

As you can see, it ain’t a regular (yet pearled) appearance
it has some large clouds and swirls in it.

The manufacturer brochure for Euperlan PK 771 Benz, says it’s cold-processable, and advises 3-10% concentration.

[Gunther]

Here’s the study they (mis)quoted
They probably mistook Cetrimonium Cl for Steartrimonium Cl, which is really irritating.

F I N A L  R E P O R T  O N  T H E  S A F E T Y A  S S E S S M E N T  O F 
C E T R IM O N IU M  C H L O R ID E , C E T R IM O N IU M B R O M ID E ,

A N D  S T E A R T R IM O N IU M  C H L O R ID E1

In Vivo

Groups of six albino male rabbits of the SPF - Russian strain were used to assess the ocular irritation potential of 0.1% , 0.5% , 1.2% , and 2.5% (w /w )

Cetrimonium Chloride. The right conjunctival sac of each rabbit was

instilled with 0.1 m L of Cetrimonium Chloride, and the left eye served as

an un treated control. The eyes were examined 24 h later both with an d

without ¯ uorescein stain in g . All of the eyes were rinsed with 0.9%

sodium chloride and examined at 48 an d 72 h . The results are reported

in Table 4. The investigators reported that after 6, 14, and 21 days, all of

the eyes were restored to normal conditions (D anoch em o, 1983b)…

The ocular irritation potentia l of 1 % and 1 0 % solutions of

Cetrimonium Chloride was investigated by instilling one conjunctival

sac of each of two rabbits with 0 .2 mL of either solution . Observations

were made after 1 , 24, and 48 h. The overall scores for the 1 % and 1 0%

Cetrimonium Chloride solutions were 3.6 and 47.5 , respectively, of a

possible maximum score of 110 ( A r m o u r I n d u st r i a l C h e m i c a l s

C o m p a n y, 1967).

Steartrimonium Chloride ( dose not stated ) was severely irritating to the eyes of nine rabbits. Both r in sed and unr in sed eyes had irritation for up to 13 days after administration . One rabbit had red watery discharge, and six had hemorrhagic peripheral areas ( S h er ex C h e m icalC o m p a n y, Inc., 1986).
I tag ak i et al. ( 1 99 1 ) investigated the ocular irritation potential of Steartrimonium Chloride. The conjunctival sac of one eye of each of three rabbits was instilled with 100 mL o f 10 % aq . Steartrimonium Chloride. Steartr imonium Chloride was highly irritating ; the total irritation score ( maximum possible score, 110 ) was 60.3 , and the maximum corneal score was 36.7.

In another study, 100 mL of a 5% ( w /v ) solution of Steartrimonium Chloride was instilled into the conjunctival sac of guinea pigs. The eyes were scored for signs of irritation after 0.5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, an d 24 h .

Steartrimonium Chloride was extremely irritating , having a total irritation

score of 96 (maximum possible score, 110) (B racher et al., 19 88) .
https://eurekamag.com/pdf/008/008686448.pdf

[Gunther]

Thanks but they are macro swirls, clearly visible a few yards away
The pearlizer is supposed to be Euperlan PK 771 Benz

[Gunther]

You’ll need to get an accredited lab to test for several corticosteroids, not just hydrocortisone = expensive

Rather, you can complain to the FDA, and tell them that you fear that it has undeclared corticosteroids, as it has happened before with other brands.
Undeclared ingredients are especially worrisome since it’s product for babies.

Likely, they will take the complain seriously (you can call back to follow up) and will test it accordingly.

[Gunther]

This is CTAC, CAPB, SLES order 
disgustingly thick and slimy = useless

This is SLES, CAPB, CETAC order
after being left standing still for 24 hours = pretty clear and not too thick and nicely conditioning.

The same one above.
Even gentle stirring makes it whitish and with some tiny white specs, which I believe this might be mild insolubility or incompatibility.
If left standing still it reverts back to clear. 
It doesn’t seem to affect its conditioning properties, and white specs may well be hidden behind pearlizer.

[Gunther]

Update:

Now I experimented another addition order:

45% deionized water

1. 12% Texapon N70 (SLES,  8.4% active)
2. 9.33% Dehyton K (CAPB,  2.8% active) as expected it becomes a bit thicker.
3. 2% Dehyquart A (Cetrimonium Chloride) now it becomes thicker, but not as much as in the previous addition order, and no slime was formed. Although it became whitish, it seems to have some bubbles in it despite not stirring it hard, unlike the previous flat-white slime.

According to my previous experiments, it should become thinner, clearer and bubble free by tomorrow.
So I left it standing still,
and protected from light (IDK if darkness will make any difference)
I will post results tomorrow.

This simple experiment clearly depicts how changing the addition order can have a huge impact on the end result, when working with anionics+cationics.

@Belassi  did you get the white slime too?
What addition order/concentrations led to slime forming?
Was it
1 CETAC
2 CAPB
3 SLES (or ALES)?