[Gunther]

Aziz said:

@Gunther Will the 20% LABSA clean dirt or dirt and colour what I experienced ?

Of course that will clean dirt
As for the color, it is a faint yellow.

[Gunther]

noorahfm said:

Hi All

I made liquid laundry detergent it work properly but some time  more viscous liquid will down in the bottom of bottle and less viscouse is in the top ,after shaking it will recover,the problem is that why the down .i need it will make more homogeneous and more transparent?  formula in % is given below
LABSA=15.2%
NaoH=2%
SLES=4%
sodium citirate=3%
EDTA=.2
Nacl=1%
water

I don’t think you’ll need that much NaCl. Try adding that salt smaller increments just to thicken it as needed.

For a mixed hand/machine washing liquid detergent you can add some extra SLES (to 6% or so) to thicken it without needing salt, and to improve flash foam.

For a machine washing detergent, you can remove SLES and increase LABSA to 20% or so. It provides extra cleaning, without SLES foam (for machine washers the less foam the better).

[Gunther]

EVchem said:

I think it’s an interesting idea but would need some strategic development. Are you going to market it to cosmetic chemists only? Make it like a workshop where you teach others about emulsion science? Will you buy materials and keep stock-how will you charge for those costs?

Agree, teaching complete courses looks better.

Anyone can set up a starting cosmetic “lab” with $200 or less
you’ll only need a scale, something to measure liquids (like graduated cylinders), a double boiler (even a beaker in a clean cooking pot on the stove works fine), a thermometer, a hand stirrer, a pH meter (some even use pH paper when starting up)
and that’s about it. So nobody would waste time and money to travel to an existing lab  … unless courses are taught there.

OTOH you can sell cosmetic lab kits online yourself
so customers only have to buy all the above from a single place.

[Gunther]

In my personal opinion Sodium alkylbenzene sulfonates are a bit milder than SLS.
Just from personal experience, I haven’t read any scientific study comparing their irritation potential.

So, in theory a SLES+Sodium sulfonate might be less irritating than common SLES+SLS shampoos.

You can likely make sulfonates milder by neutralizing LABSA with ammonium carbonate (to make an ammonium version), TEA or perhaps even Magnesium hydroxide.

[Gunther]

Besides CDEA containing diethanolamine as @ozgirl pointed out,
LABSA molecular weight varies a little bit from batch to batch, so it needs a slightly different NaOH amount to neutralize each time.

The last 5% or so of the NaOH solution should be added slowly, stepwise, checking pH every time.

[Gunther]

myraqureshi said:

The same formulation below without Guar is “thin”

Water Phase
Aqua Q/S
Guar 1%
PG 2%
EDTA 0.3%
Aloe Vera Gel 0.5%
Allantoin 2%
Cetrimonium Chloride 0.5%

Oil Phase
Crodamol STS 3%
Crodamol Ab 1%
Cetostearyl Alcohol 4%
Jojoba Oil (macerated with Hibiscus and Moringa) 0.5%
Cetyl Alcohol 2%
Glyceryl monostearate 1.5%
Stearic Acid 0.5%   (added to try and thicken)

Phase C
D Panthenol 0.5
Ethylhexlyglycerin & Phenoxyethanol 1%

0.5% CETAC is too little for a conditioner
you’d need something like 3% active CETAC so it can both emulsify and thicken the formulation.

Most commercial CETAC solutions are about 30% active ingredient (i.e. Dehyquart CC7), so you’d need 10% by vol for 3% active CETAC.

[Gunther]

Perry said:

Well, I guess the dye you’re using doesn’t work on hair. I recommend you find different dyes. 

For example, this product uses 

HC BLUE NO. 2, BASIC BLUE 99, HC YELLOW NO. 4, BASIC BROWN 16

I couldn’t find any product that uses Black 107

What opens the hair cuticle in that formulation?
Urea?

Blackest Black Semi Permanent Hair Color
Ingredients
WATER, UREA, CETEARYL ALCOHOL, PEG-5 COCAMINE, PEG-29 CASTOR OIL, GLYCOL DISTEARATE, CETEARETH-33, HC BLUE NO. 2, ALCOHOL DENAT., BASIC BLUE 99, HC YELLOW NO. 4, QUATERNIUM-80, PROPYLENE GLYCOL, ETHANOLAMINE, FRAGRANCE, BASIC BROWN 16, POLYQUATERNIUM-22, COCAMIDOPROPYL BETAINE, HEXYL CINNAMAL, LINALOOL

[Gunther]

KOH is more expensive than NaOH
What’s your formula like?

[Gunther]

Ale said:

I live in Mexico and I haven’t been able to find Ecocert approved preservatives other than phenoxyethanol which I don’t want to use. I read that is possible to use potassium sorbate with sodium benzoate as preservative. So I was wondering if these together can make a good broad-spectrum preservative. I haven’t been able to find a reliable source indicating the percentage needed for preserving the products. 

Right now I am making very simple lotions with few ingredients like this: https://www.humblebeeandme.com/vanilla-coco-body-lotion/

How can I calculate the percentage needed of potassium sorbate and sodium benzoate? Also, I am really afraid of bacteria and mold so, is it possible to test it in small incubators such as the one sold in LotionCrafter? https://lotioncrafter.com/collections/lab-testing/products/mytemp-mini-digital-incubator 

If you know another one that I can get please advise. I cannot afford right now to take a course so any advice will be greatly appreciated!

To make an informed decision please look up Minuimum Inhibitory Concentrations for Sodium benzoate, Potassium sorbate and their combo.

and you’ll see that:

1. These preservatives work much better at lower pH levels.

2. Sodium benzoate needs high concentrations to inhibit certain bacteria.
i.e. 10 mg/ml (1%) needed to inhibit Staphylococcus aureus
http://agrojournal.org/15/04-05-09.pdf
If you’re using less than that percentage, you’re virtually guaranteed to fail the microbiological challenge test (at the same pH)

3. Na-benzoate + K-sorbate works better in combo, and lesser amounts are needed.

[Gunther]

anait said:

Dear all, 
my company is producing dry powder scrub which contains several natural ingredients, such as clay, flower petals, rice powder and ground apricot kernels.  Since it is being sold as a dry powder in a plastic, narrow neck bottles (no direct finger access) we did not think it would require any microbiological testing - is this the right approach? Should we still perform such testing or it would be sufficient to  write a warning about keeping the product away from water to avoid possible contamination? Also, if we need to use a preservative for such products after all, which one would you recommend?

Your products should get microbiological testing as they could have dormant bacterial spores that will grow when exposed to water and nutrients.
If someone gets sick from it and sues you, you’re likely to lose the lawsuit and lose most of your assets and get your business closed until you get rid of the spores.

As an extreme example, imagine someone unknowingly sells powdered products with Anthrax spores.
While bacteria won’t grow in powders, they will surely grow in households or inside human or animal hosts.
Once they trace back to him, it’s game over.

https://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/ProductsIngredients/PotentialContaminants/ucm433748.htm

https://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodScienceResearch/LaboratoryMethods/ucm565586.htm

It’s usually easier and cheaper to outsource microbial testing, unless you’re a really large company.

[Gunther]

myatmyat said:

which are the best formula for transparent dis wash liquid soap?

A shampoo-like SLES+SLS+CAPB formulation will work fine and it’s (mostly) non-irritating, but it doesn’t cut grease as well as sulfonates do.

You can add some ethoxylated fatty alcohol to the above formulation in order to improve grease cutting, while remaining clear.

[Gunther]

AVisotsky said:

Also, henna works best in acidic pH. But it can stain the skin

Too bad. I was hoping to make a “natural” beard and mustache (and even scalp hair root) frequent use dye someday, but if it stains skin too…

ngarayeva001 said:

You need to leave it for several hours until it becomes brown and only then apply.. some leave overnight 

Did you mean leaving henna soaked in boiling water overnight, is room temperature water fine?

Belassi said:

Oh. I see. 
There was another issue. My wife said it made her hair too dry.

Maybe a semi leave-on / rinse-off conditioner will work better than a shampoo (and can be left on longer than shampoo without drying hair too much)?

Belassi said:

I think I will abandon this experiment. Sometimes you learn as much from negative results.

Please don’t, I still believe that there’s a niche market for natural, gray hair retouch formulations for those who don’t need exact shade matching.

[Gunther]

I actually had the opposite problem
dimethicone (or even 15% dimethiconol) is just too thick for car shine as is
so I diluted it with cyclomethicone D5

You can make it really water thin so it can be sprayed-on, and evaporates without leaving surfaces wet
The only problem is solubilizing fragrance in a 100% silicones formulation.
Remember to add the word FLAMMABLE in the label.

[Gunther]

Bubbles said:

Jeez they have a section about formulating your own skin lightening cream.

Also, “Natural skin lightening agents are safe to handle and usually do not cause any skin reactions.”… What??

They also sell pure hydroquinone and monobenzone raw powders for DIY formulators.
What can possibly go wrong? :# 😮

[Gunther]

ngarayeva001 said:

Sorry @Gunther, I couldn’t find any info on it’s compatability with cationics. Which document are you referring to? 

Even if it’s not compatible with cationics, it’s an incredible surfactant. I received mine two days ago and was very impressed. I coudn’t not achieve similar result with any other surfactant I have ever tried. Still figuring out how to thicken it properly.

Several formulas in the Internet have sarcosinates along cationics like CETAC.
Table 2: High Lather Crème Rinse Shampoo

Component Composition (w/w) %

Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, 30% 20.0

Coco betaine, 35% 10.0

Lauramide DEA 5.0

Cetrimonium chloride, 30% 0.8

Steralkonium chloride, 25% 0.1

Disodium DTA 0.2

Water, perfume, preservative q.s.

Adjust pH to 6.7
http://glenncorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Chattem-Hamposyl-Applications-Data.pdf

Do you know if sarcosinates can be thickened with Crothix or Carbopol?

[Gunther]

Maybe boiling sea mud to kill off bacteria, and then rinsing it with clean water to get rid of odorous substances?

[Gunther]

tasha15 said:

this is my shampoo formulation. Sls/sles/sulphate free anti dandruff shampoo.

Antibacterial agent: 0.5 %

Glycerin : 2 %

EDTA                     : 0.5 %

Lauryl Glucoside : 10%

Decyl Glucoside : 6 %

Coco Glucoside & Gliceryl Oleate : 2 %

Sodium Benzoate   : 0.1 %

Sodium CMC :  1 %

Lavender essential oil : 1 %

Citric Acid               : As needed

Water                      : Qs - 100.

IS THERE ANYTHING I SHOULD ADD OR REMOVE TO MAKE THIS FORMULATION BETTER. Please guide me. Thank you for your time and consideration. 

1. What’s the antibacterial agent? Does that work as a preservative too?
2. EDTA better at 0.1%.
3. Too much glucosides will make it sticky. 
4. Na-benzoate too little at 0.1%. Better at 0.5%+acidic pH, but even that’s no substitute for microbial tests.
5. I don’t think Na-CMC will thicken glucosides much, but only experimentation can tell.
6. Citric acid as needed? What’s the target pH?

[Gunther]

ngarayeva001 said:

Someone asked for my opinion on a skincare product and shared
a link in a pm. I was shocked to find out that a company is based in the US and sells moisturisers with 20%!!! of
hydroquinone and some other potentially dangerous nonsense. I genuinely believe it should be reported (to
FDA?) as someone can harm themselves. 

I would kindly ask the industry specialists based in the US
to share their opinion. Shall I report
(is it worth it)? what’s the process? to what agency etc.?

Report them to the FDA
https://www.fda.gov/Safety/ReportaProblem/default.htm

You can argue that they’re selling formulations that should be prescription only as OTC (and they are).

[Gunther]

Just see how many workers in oil wells and platforms have gotten soaking wet, totally covered with unrefined oil from head to toe
and none of them seems to get cancer.

[Gunther]

pH 14 means too much Sodium hydroxide was added.
LABSA carbon lengths may vary from supplier to supplier, even from batch to batch, so the NaOH amount needed to neutralize it varies a bit as well.

Calculate the NaOH amount needed to neutralize LABSA and substract 2%
then add the remaining 2% NaOH (in water solution) in small increments of 0.1% and check the pH level after each one.

pH 7 would be fine to make it a bit less harsh on the skin. I believe sulfonates can be lowered to pH 6 without degrading themselves.
Sulfonates are just too harsh for handwash. Some people even find SLES/SLS formulations too harsh for their hands.

[Gunther]

1 I see Stepan APB has Ammonium lauryl sulfate in in, wouldn’t it be a bit irritating? Why not just ALES? (and maybe add some ammonium xylene sulfonate)

2 Maybe CAPB can be increased a bit more to make the formulation milder?
(but too much CAPB makes it feel, I don’t know how to describe it, sticky when applying it but rinses off afterwards.

3 Why propylene glycol?

4 Why Polysorbate 20?

5 I wonder if PEG-7 GC will make it a bit sticky, thus making dirt adhere more to hair?

6 How frequent is Caprylhydroxamic Acid allergy?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28421670

7 What about adding some bisabolol?

8 According to Futurama’ Prof. Farnsworth, makeup for dogs is where the money is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl3N5bbWn98

Prof. Farnsworth: But once we free society from dependence on Mom’s dark matter, scientists will finally care enough to develop cleaner, alternative fuels.

Fry: Scientists like you!

Prof. Farnsworth: No, not me. I’m too busy developing makeup for dogs. That’s where the money is.

Prof. Farnsworth: Good news, everyone!

Amy: You perfected dog mascara?

Prof. Farnsworth: Far from it. If you ask me, they look like a bunch of hookers!
https://theinfosphere.org/Makeup_for_dogs
LOL

[Gunther]

Amittal said:

the HPMC giving sticky feeling how to remove it ?

You shouldn’t need any HPMC or any thickener other than salt.
Both sulfonates and SLES properly thicken with salt. CAPB and CDEA/MEA sharply lower the salt amount required for thickening.

External thickeners like HPMC might leave a sticky residue on dishes.

[Gunther]

What about the flammable label?
How low is the flash point allowed to be as long as you display FLAMMABLE in the label?

[Gunther]

The problem with “natural” saponified soaps is that they’re too harsh, way worse than synthetic dishwashes.

Maybe there’s a niche market for MILD, make-believe “naturals” like glucosides (derived from natural glucose), thickened with natural Xantan gum or something like that
but you’d need to spend countless hours reading AND experimenting yourself to get a good enough formulation.

CDEA is far from natural, BTW.

[Gunther]

Speaking of bakery, icing pumps would work fine too
some are made of metal and very sturdy, widely available at any cakemaking shops