Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating help with dishwash formulation

  • help with dishwash formulation

    Posted by Amittal on January 8, 2019 at 3:03 am

    my ingredient for dishwash are:

    Water                                80.000 KG
    Citric Acid                         0.450 KG
    Linear Alkyl Benzene Sulphonic Acid 90% 4.500 KG
    Caustic 50 %                     1.875 KG
    SLES 28 %                         3.300 KG
    Fragrance Lemon (Oil)    0.120 KG
    Solution of HPMC -0.600 KG + Hot Water -6.000 KG
    Solution of Nacl -1.600 KG + Water -7.000 KG
    Yellow Colour 10 %           0.050 KG
    Total                                 105.495 KG
    and my procedure for making also is in this sequence
    Predilute Fragrance (oil) with SLES 28%
    My problems are:
    1. The end product is not crystal clear
    2. How to make it super thick (in same price)
    3. any other or best way to emulsify fragrance
    or any other improvement .. 
    and Sorry for my english
    Thanking you 
    fekher replied 3 years, 9 months ago 11 Members · 24 Replies
  • 24 Replies
  • chemicalmatt

    Member
    January 8, 2019 at 10:24 pm

    Citric acid and caustic soda?
    LABS and SLES?
    HPMC and NaCl?
    No preservative other than high pH?
    No amphoteric hydrotrope?
    You got problems there, my friend.

  • gunther

    Member
    January 8, 2019 at 11:15 pm

    1 Neutralized LABSA always seems to have a faint yellow tint. So it can’t be crystal clear. You can use a SLS + SLES shampoo like formula, if you want it to be clear (and milder on the skin).

    2 To thicken it you
    2.1 can add more LABSA + NaOH
    2.2 more SLES
    2.3 conduct a salt curve analysis to make sure you ain’t adding more salt than needed, which makes it thinner.
    2.4 add an alkanolamide

    3.1 Buy a ready made, water soluble fragrance
    3.2 use PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil and/or a polysorbate to solubilize fragrance

    4 add a preservative, as @chemicalmatt just mentioned.

  • chemist77

    Member
    January 9, 2019 at 9:29 am

    Super thick in same price plus clarity, not a good prospect.

  • Amittal

    Member
    January 14, 2019 at 11:02 am

    Citric acid and caustic soda?
    LABS and SLES?
    HPMC and NaCl?
    No preservative other than high pH?
    No amphoteric hydrotrope?
    You got problems there, my friend.

    @chemicalmatt 
    1. Citric acid is for ” https://www.thespruce.com/citric-acid-safety-cleaning-uses-1707021 ” and caustic soda is for making LABSA neutral ( or any suggestion ) .

    2. LABSA is my primary surfactant and I am using SLES for emulsify the fragrance ( is it ok ? or any other suggestion for SLES  ? ).

    3. ( we tried CMC, HEC, MHEC, Carbopol 940 ) HPMC is best compatible with LABSA and nacl for cheap thickener ( also we conduct a salt curve analysis ) , and we know with salt, form decrease. So, alternate for nacl which compatible with HPMC ?

    4. For preservative i am using now Benzalkonium chloride and my product have ph 7  ( BKC is it ok ? or any other suggestion for BKC )

    5. given order of amphoteric hydrotrope will try this also thanks.

    and sorry for my english 

  • Chirag

    Member
    January 14, 2019 at 5:09 pm

    @amittal if you Use Benzalkonium Cloride, it may react with Anionics and precipitate..not Compatible I guess

  • Amittal

    Member
    January 19, 2019 at 5:31 am

    @Chirag I tried.and you are right… So i am using nonionic (alphox 200) with bkc . 

  • Amittal

    Member
    January 20, 2019 at 6:47 am

    the HPMC giving sticky feeling how to remove it ?

  • Amittal

    Member
    January 20, 2019 at 8:24 am

    @Gunther
    with higher viscosity the formulation become cloudy 

  • Chirag

    Member
    January 28, 2019 at 6:18 pm

    Amittal said:

    the HPMC giving sticky feeling how to remove it ?

    @Amittal you can replace it with CDEA or CMEA. 

  • Amittal

    Member
    February 17, 2019 at 2:19 am

    Tx @Chirag i replaced hpmc with capb the end product is much more transparent but i am getting less foam after adding capb don’t know why!
    And is there any way to use Benzalkonium Cloride with sles?? I am currently using sodium benzoate. 

  • Amittal

    Member
    February 22, 2019 at 3:20 am

    @Gunther @Chemist77 @chemicalmatt any help pls

    1st issue i am getting less foam after adding capb don’t know why!
    2nd issur is there any way to use Benzalkonium Cloride with sles?? I am currently using sodium benzoate. But i want to use bkc

  • ozgirl

    Member
    February 22, 2019 at 4:00 am

    Benzalkonium Chloride is not compatible with SLES or any other anionics. You will need to find a different preservative if you want to use SLES.

  • Amittal

    Member
    February 28, 2019 at 5:40 am

    @ozgirl tx for my 2nd issue can u help me with 1st issue..  Without capb foam is good… But after adding some capb foam decreases.. Pls help me!! 

  • bil7

    Member
    March 7, 2019 at 6:28 pm

    First of all you adding labsa amount much higher not safe secure with regular washing hands especially for womens after using this product regular their hands skin will rough instead of 4.5 kg add 3 and increase sles or sls with coco betaine or DEA or better with MEA and add citric after neutralize of labsa sles fat . If u want crystal clear shine add some tartaric acid if u adding 10 percent citric then add 1 percent tartaric acid it will also clear cloudy visibility and ur product glows .
    Second fragrance adding de limonene it will mix 2 parts of tween 20 one part TEA and addition glycerin added same phase if lemon fragnance then added with glycerin mixed TEA.
    Helps you better post later on SOP.

  • gunther

    Member
    March 8, 2019 at 3:38 pm

    Amittal said:

    the HPMC giving sticky feeling how to remove it ?

    You shouldn’t need any HPMC or any thickener other than salt.
    Both sulfonates and SLES properly thicken with salt. CAPB and CDEA/MEA sharply lower the salt amount required for thickening.

    External thickeners like HPMC might leave a sticky residue on dishes.

  • Aziz

    Member
    March 10, 2019 at 11:31 am

    ozgirl said:

    Benzalkonium Chloride is not compatible with SLES or any other anionics. You will need to find a different preservative if you want to use SLES.

    Is sodium benzoate not enogh as preservative in dish wash liquid ? Is MPS compatable along with Sodium benzoate ?

  • Amittal

    Member
    March 11, 2019 at 5:13 am

    @Aziz i want Benzalkonium Chloride bcz its preservative and also anti-microbial. On other hand sodium benzoate is only preservative

  • Amittal

    Member
    March 13, 2019 at 3:10 am

    @bil7 I’ll add labsa to 3kg but like labsa sles will not clean properly den what ingredients should i add to replace labsa for cleaning purpose. And thanks for problem of clear and fragrance. 

  • Chirag

    Member
    March 26, 2019 at 12:46 pm

    @Amittal along with LABSA, SLES will solve the cleaning problem as SLES also works well on the grease. Increase the amount of SLES in your recipe and then tell us. 
    BkC will not go well with LABSA and SLES as Ozgirl says.

  • Quimico

    Member
    April 19, 2019 at 6:45 pm

    The amounts of active ingredients is very low to obtain your desired results.
    SLES improve the clarity and stability of the formula.
    The minimum active ingredients at least;
    SLES 28%= 0.28 x 15 Ai =4.2
    LABSA 90%= 0.9 X 19 AI =  13.5

    This is a good recipe 
    Water balance TO 100
    Caustic soda 99% 1.3
    LABSA 96%             12
    SLES 70%                7
    DEA                           2
    STPP                       1.5
    SALT                        1.5
    EDTA                        0.2

  • Ahmad

    Member
    May 6, 2019 at 6:16 am
    Belassi said:
    940 is useless with anionic surfactants.

    which grade of carbopol is better, ultrez-20/21 is not available in our country.
    we have polygel-940/941/934.
    Does it have any other name (ultrez-21)?

  • Quimico

    Member
    May 8, 2019 at 1:43 pm

    Use EDTA as;
    1. Chelating agent
    2. Preservative
    3. foam booster
    why you use too much fragrance for Dishwash? Just 0.05% is enough.

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    May 3, 2020 at 10:08 am

    Hello i want to ask if is impossible to Mix carbopol 940 with benzalkonium Chloride. If have a methot

  • fekher

    Member
    May 3, 2020 at 11:46 am

    @Nikos make a new post to have more chance for answer. 

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